Adrian Keeler – From Fishing to Sheriff: Leadership Faith & Protecting Wyoming

The DFS agent that I was working with said Adrian's a cop and he

can keep you safe. And that little girl crawled

over and she sat on my right foot.

And I, I looked down at that girl and she said you can keep

me safe. And I looked her in the eyes and

I said, I promise I'll keep you safe.

And at that point, I wasn't going to break that promise.

I was not going to break that promise to that girl.

And I went to the ends of the earth to keep that promise.

And it, it still is the, the most egregious child sexual

abuse case that I'd, and I had completely consumed my career

in, in this. But they asked me that and I'm

like, I can't answer any of that.

Like I can't talk about like the interview that I just did.

I can't talk about any of these things.

And the only thing that came out and people still make fun of me

today. I said, well, I caught a badger.

Like I, I saw something in that man that I, I didn't understand,

but I thought, man, how do I, how do I get that in my life?

Hey there and welcome to From the Ground Up Show, the show

where we encourage and inspire the next generation of free

thinking leaders by telling the stories of those that have been

there, done that and are still getting it done, building a life

that they love with their hearts, their hands and their

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online merch store shop.fromthegroundupshow.com.

We have a lot of cool merchandise there with the logo

on it and some common sayings. There's a few fun items that you

might not find anywhere else. So today this is going to be a

fun one for me. I am joined in the studio by

Adrian Keeler. Adrian is a 20 year law

enforcement veteran currently serving as a Sheriff's Deputy in

Johnson County, Wyoming. His career has spanned both

Police Department and sheriff roles.

He has filled roles such as armorer, firearms trainer,

investigator, student resource officer and others.

Adrian is an avid outdoorsman, a father of three boys, a devoted

husband, and a follower of Jesus.

And as of a few weeks ago, Adrian is a candidate for

sheriff in Johnson County. Adrian has been a close friend

of mine for more than a decade, and there is no one else I would

trust more to protect my family and my community and law

enforcement. So, Adrian, thanks for joining

us. Thanks for having me.

Awesome. Well, we start every show just

getting to know you a little bit.

So do you mind telling us a little bit about your childhood,

your background? What was life growing up for

you? Sure.

So I our family moved to Casper, WY when I was three years old.

I always tell everybody that I wasn't, I'm not a native, but I

got here soon as I could walk. And so growing up in Casper, WY

came from a a very loving home. Father was a, a principal and a

mom was a teacher. I have one other brother, an

older brother, and I really had a, that's kind of where I

started my original kind of draw to outdoors.

I found myself at a super young age before it was actually, you

know, cool fly fishing in the North Platte River and what I

live fairly close to it. So I went down and I mean, even

as a, you know, 1011 year old, I had a really close friend and we

would, we would go down and, and fish.

And I think I fished that river for probably 2 years before I

even hooked a fish. I mean that was, it was quite

the endeavor. But in that I just really dove

into the love of time flies. And I started my first job when

I was 13 at the ugly bug fly shop.

And I think the only reason the owner at that time hired me is

because I every day after school, that's where I would

stop. And he just got frankly

irritated of a, a 13 year old kid just standing around all the

time. He's like, why don't you tie

flies or do something? So actually I started to

commercially tie flies, just just some simple patterns, but

really became pretty good at at tying flies even at A at a young

age. And by the time I was 15, he was

actually charging adults and other professionals to come in.

And I was giving fly tying demonstrations and teaching

classes at 15. So I really I still do that

today, not as much that that kind of lid into just love for

the outdoors. Like every time all through high

school and and even to today, that was that was always my kind

of place to go to kind of get reset.

So I absolutely love God's creation, God creating Wyoming.

Like it's just my, it's my, it's my favorite spot.

I So in high school I was an athlete.

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hot sun, I was always frustrated that my clothes really didn't

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Played football primarily. I would say I was good at it.

I wasn't the best by any means, but I, I definitely, it was what

I, what I lacked in physical ability.

I think I brought just the complete mental thought process

that I'm just not going to quit. And so I think that really

helped kind of, it's just always kind of how I've been.

So that shifted. I had a major, major event in my

life in 1994, the no in the summer of 95, I was water skiing

out of Alcova and had an accident and I just completely

disassembled my left knee. It to include my artery, which I

didn't understand. I'm, I was with a bunch of my

buddies. We're on a boat and everyone's

like, Oh yeah, I just brush it off.

And I of course tried to do exactly that.

And about, I don't know, 20 minutes into it, my, my calf was

as big around as my thigh just because all the blood was in in

it. And, and ended up driving myself

to Casper. This is pretty cell phone stuff.

So pulled up to my house, my mom came out.

Long story short, you know, 13 or 14 surgeries later, yeah,

good was walking and everything else.

And I I really had the goal in at that season of my life that I

was going to play like the next step for me was to go to college

and play football someplace. And I mean, not anything.

I wasn't setting my, my goal at a, you know, a Division One

scholarship, but I was definitely, that was my segue

into into college. So the rug was kind of pulled

out from underneath me. Yeah, I think that attitude of

never giving up is pretty prevalent among successful

people. I hear that from people I

interview all the time. And that's something I see in

myself is you're not always the best at it.

But someone, one of my favorite quotes is what is it?

A man, that man that will not quit, cannot be defeated or I'm

screwing that up. It's something like that.

But yeah, just that drive to to never give up, to keep going no

matter what, you know? Yeah, that competitive edge.

You'll put me in a body bag before I'll let one of them beat

me. Like the the competition may

kill me, but I won't lose it. Carry on with the story I'm

going to tell you about the first time that I like with

that, that attitude of not giving up has definitely been

the baseline in a lot of things that I've done this season of my

life. I had completely, I had

completely given up. I had really, I, I busted my

tail trying to get back to being able to walk and trying to, I

had one year to get back into my, the direction that I wanted

to take my life or the direction I thought my life needed to go.

And so I really did. I, I busted my tail, but I never

could get back to where I was. You know, I was never as strong.

I wasn't as fast. I and I didn't play my senior

year in football and that, that really set me back.

I mean, that defeated me like I did.

I'm not going to say I gave up, but I Dang sure crossed my hands

and and pouted, you know, for, for a, a large season of my

life. It's honestly the, the, the

worst season of my life was that, you know, around my senior

year in high school and through, through the years in college.

So, you know, I, I signed up for Casper College and just went to

Community College there and, and was just kind of going through

the motions and, you know, trying to self medicate and, you

know, just made of a lot of choices that I'm not, you know,

terribly proud of. But I can also say that looking

back now, I wouldn't change a bit of it because that was, that

was really instrumental in showing me that I needed a

savior. Like, and because, you know, I

was 18 years old and, and bulletproof.

And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden life happened and I'm

like, well, I've got a shift, but I didn't know how to shift.

I just, I just didn't. And through those, you know, I

don't know, you know, you, you think about man, I'm a, you

know, I'm a, I'm a good guy and always it's always the standard

right? Of like you never really look

internally. You look at everybody around you

and you're like, you know, I'm not that bad.

I'm not that bad. And so and so that's.

It's usually not even the people around you.

It's usually the worst you can find.

I'm not. I'm not as bad as that guy.

Yep. And so, yeah, the easiest guy to

lie to is always looking at you in the mirror, you know, And so

that was kind of the season of my life there.

And it was, it was definitely a, a struggle.

I ended up going back to the kind of the what, what the main

draw of my life, which is the outdoors.

And I was kind of where I was trying to go get reset and by

myself fishing and hunting a lot, which at the time there was

1 outfitting business on on the North Platte River.

So I got, I got hired on with him.

I was one of the 1st 5 original fishing guides to float up and

down the up and down the river, which was nice.

I mean, there was literally, you know, maybe a half dozen to 10

boats on a busy, busy, busy day. And that's a four fishermen and

trout fishermen. That's a pretty significant

thing for the audience that isn't fisherman or or doesn't

know what the North Platte is. Can you speak to that a little

bit? Yeah, it's, it's a world

renowned fly fishing destination.

It's the the fish population in the North Platte River stretch

from below Alcova down even into the town of Casper is just, it's

a, it's a phenomenal fishery. And so it's a very, it's a

destination oriented place for a lot of fly fisherman throughout

the world. Yeah, I remembered that quote.

It's a man that will not be defeated, cannot be defeated.

I had it butchered earlier. But to you have a significant

injury, kind of changes your life, the direction of your

life, put you into a bit of a depression, a spiral downward,

kind of going through the motions at college, working as

an outfitter, a fly fishing on the North Platte.

How do you get from there to a law enforcement career?

Were there any other jobs in between?

Not really. I met a girl and that, that,

that was a big transition. No.

And that's I, I met Kathy, she was going to College in Casper.

And yeah, we, we started to date and we dated a long time.

And I was always like working in this seasonal industry, like

being a fly fishing and hunting guide.

You have to, you know, you don't get sick days you don't have,

you don't have time off. It's just if, if you want paid

you, you work. And so you're really trying to

kick take a, a year's worth of income and cram it into a couple

of seasons of, you know, seven months or eight months out of

the year. And so I was gone all the time

like I would I would show up at night at, you know, after the

sunset and get up way before the sun rose to get out there to

take take clients. And so you would have to

intentionally like take a day off to go do something.

And then in my mind, I'm like, well, I'm, I'm missing out on,

on, on making money today. So, so that was kind of my, that

was where I was at. I'd loved, I still do.

I love to teach, I love to share things that I'm passionate about

with others. And I mean, even as a, as a, as

a youngster, time flies. Like I was just passionate about

that and, and love to, to teach and to demonstrate and to watch

people succeed in things that I help them with.

So being a, a fly fishing guide, I know it probably has a stigma

of not being a hard job. And there's a lot of positives

to it. I mean, it's, it's fun.

You're outdoors all day. But the, the other positive or

the negative is you're outdoors all day and, and it's, you know,

you're, you're, you're rowing a boat, you know, 15 to 20 miles a

day. Most of that in an you know,

you're, you do it. Let's say you float from Alcova

down to the next access point out.

It's I think it's 11 miles. Myself and a couple other guys

actually tracked it one day and the average, the average we

would row the boat would be, you know, plus 6 miles, which means

that you're going 5 miles back upstream.

So yeah, the, the program is you float down a spot, you row back

to the top of it, you float down a spot, row back up to the top

of it. So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's,

it's physically demanding work, but you also have to be a

teacher. You have to be able to handle

adult temper tantrums. And, you know, so you, you're a

counselor, you're a teacher. I mean, you're, and you're stuck

at your office is, you know, 16 feet long and you have two

people in it and you don't necessarily get to pick the

people that are going to be sitting next to you.

So it can have it have it has its challenges, but I always

really enjoyed that. And, and, and same with guiding,

guiding hunters. Kathy was from from Buffalo and

I can't remember the conversation.

We were, we, we hadn't been married yet, but she's like, I,

I see you during the summer about four days a month.

So why don't you just drive the hour north?

And because she wanted to get back to Buffalo.

And so she was living in Buffalo and I would, I was living in

Alcoba and then would commute on my days off and, and, and come

back up. And then during the winter time,

I would come up and, and, you know, hang out in, in Johnson

County and, and really get to enjoy that part of the, the

state. And so we were married and in

2004 and I was kind of going through the motions of always

applying for different jobs in Buffalo.

But as you know, I mean, there's, I mean, there's not a

huge, even back then, there was not a huge job force, you know,

that you couldn't, you couldn't find places.

So you'd go through the, the listing and the well, there's

three jobs there's. And so one of them came up for

the Buffalo Police Department as a police officer.

And my, my initial reaction was, I don't know if that's that's

the right thing for me. But I also knew that I wanted my

marriage to succeed. I wanted to have a family.

I didn't want to raise them in Casper and Buffalo just seemed

like back then, I don't know what it was, but like I would

hit KC in the wind. I don't know what it, it just

the wind stops and then you get there and you're just like, man,

I can stand up, right? This is amazing.

Like I can't believe this type of Eden is this close to Casper,

WY where it's, it's just always, you know, 50 mile an hour winds.

So and so I really did enjoy that aspect and just the, the

country and, and you know, Kathy's families from here, they

have a ranch in between KC and and Buffalo.

And so I would show up and I'd just help her father and

brothers out on the on the ranch during the the winter time.

Yeah. So I really enjoyed that aspect.

And I was really trying to get some traction in Buffalo, but I

just didn't know how or where. And so this opportunity came

along and I kind of I put my application together.

And I know you've told me before that, you know, when you were in

your teen years in college, that people that knew you then law

enforcement was probably the last thing they would expect you

to do. How did, how did that come

about? You said you saw the, the

opening and applied, but what was the thought process?

Maybe what was the the emotion diving into law enforcement?

You know, the, the I, I did have some interactions with, with law

enforcement, nothing crazy, but I mean, just, I would say it's,

it was probably not wildly abnormal from, you know, your,

your 19 or 20 year old college kid.

But I, I specifically remember a, a time and I had a, a Casper

PD officer dealing. I was, I was dealing, I'd, I'd

done something wrong And it, it was, it wasn't like it didn't

have anything to do with anything bad.

It was a traffic ticket. Like I just got pulled over for

speeding. I was just, I was driving like a

19 year old boy, you know, and, and so he pulls me over and it

was just the, the whole interaction was, I just felt

like it was condescending, like he was talking down to me.

And I kept thinking to myself, like, I, I can't deny the fact

that I was speeding. I mean that, that's not the

issue at hand, but I left that interaction just seething

because of the way that he, he, he, he treated me and I'm, And

so while when this application process came up for the Buffalo

Police Department, I'm like, you know, I can absolutely step into

that role and, and do that because I, I do have kind of a,

a guide between what's right and what's wrong.

And, and I feel like that I, I have the, even back then, I felt

like I had some discernment about, you know, how to, you

know, listen to people and then come up with a solution to a

problem. Like I was, that's just been

part of my character since I was a little kid.

I just, I mean, a problem solver or try to be a problem solver.

Sometimes I didn't, but so that was really the the driver behind

even sending an application in is like, I'm going to see if I

get this and I get this opportunity, I'm going to be a

law enforcement officer that can enforce the law, hold people

accountable, but still treat them with dignity.

And so and have I done it every time?

Absolutely not. I mean, there are sometimes

where I've, I have, you know, walked out of a.

Interview or interrogation with somebody that's just done

something horrific. And you know, I'm a, I'm a human

being and I, my, my initial thought process is just maybe

anger, maybe for maybe whatever. But I've always tried to hold

myself to the standard of not being condescending and try to

treat people with, with respect. And so that's kind of the

motivation. One, just a, a need for a job in

Buffalo, WY. And two, I thought, you know, I

could do that job. I think I could treat people

fair and kind and, and, and step into that role.

So I applied and they gave me a shot, which I mean, they're

during the testing process, there was, I think there was 11

people that were testing for two positions and which is really

shifted now. It's, it's hard to get people to

actually want to go into law enforcement and step into that

arena. But back to my, my leg, I hadn't

done a lot of exercise or well, I've been exercising, but just

like, like running and on my leg, it just, it just weird.

But so they, you'd show up, you do in the testing process, you'd

go through a physical exam and then you'd go through, you know,

a written test. And then if you pass those, then

you go onto an oral board and then you'd go to a psychological

exam and etcetera, etcetera. And so the very first thing

they, the very first Test we had to do was a physical

examination, which is a, a law enforcement standard for the

state where they said you have to meet a certain parameter.

And, and I, I hadn't ran and since, since my knee had been

blown out, you know, I, I, I, I was always like on ellipticals

or things, but I mean, I worked out, but I just didn't do that

portion of it. And, and I didn't prepare at

all. It was just, I went up one day

and jumped into the pool and you have to do push ups, setups and

a run. And I did the run and I did not

do well at all. They actually told me on the way

around, you know, you have to run a mile and 1/2 and I came

around the last, the last lap and they're like, it's fine.

Let's let's just go in and start this stuff.

And I said, I said, I'll be back.

I said I'll be right with you. And I, I ran that last last lap.

And so that's just how I was like I set out to do a mile and

a half and I was so I mean, honestly, I was embarrassed

because I had not ran. I'd not actually put in my body

into that, that before in my knee.

I mean, it was, it was miserable.

But anyway, that's that, that was just the approach I took to

that. Like they can kick me out.

Honestly, I thought they were going to kick me out because I,

I was, you know, I was a solid minute and a minute past the,

the, the standard. And we went through the, the

oral board, took the, took the all right, sorry.

I went to the, the written test, took the written test, went

through the oral board and I thought that was it back-to-back

to guiding. I could tell Kathy, hey, I

tried, you know, there's 333 job openings in Buffalo and I

applied for, for one of them that I thought would be a career

and didn't get it. So I'm back to fishing, you

know? I want to take a moment to tell

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MacArthur code.com. And, and they called me and

said, Hey, do you want to do you want the job?

And I'm like, well, I guess so. And so really with that, I

remember I was, you know, just just a lot of prayer over it

and, and just, I didn't feel like it's the right thing to do,

but I just felt compelled that if I didn't do it, it was the

wrong thing. And, and in my, in the back of

my mind, that fear of like, I, I know I have to, I know I have to

pass the Wyoming Law enforcement Academy.

And it's the same standard that I just failed, you know, and

again, I, I just got to work. I mean, I just started to,

started to run and, and, and lift.

And because I, I knew I had, I mean, I was confident in my, in

my, my, all my other skill sets, but my knee had had definitely

changed things physically. So I just got to work and went

to the Academy and 2006 passed the Academy, passed the run,

passed all the stuff. While I was there, I messed up

my other ankle. And anyway, but yeah, that was

kind of the start of the career and stepped into a patrol space

with Buffalo Police Department. Yeah.

So can you take us through your career development, I mean a

brand new hire at the PD, you're kind of the low guy on the totem

pole. And I know you worked your way

up to Sergeant in the PD and then made the step over to the

Sheriff's Department. Can you walk us through what

that? What does a law enforcement

career look like? What is the assignment given to

the new guy and how do you progress in that system?

Sure. So the as a patrol officer, you

started and you were working. So back then we didn't have

there. There's a program called a field

training officer and that is after you get out of the

Academy, you sit alongside a veteran of, of the, the agency

and there's a certain standard that that is set.

Then you go through, you know, different, different aspects of

the job and just to make sure that it's not just book smart,

but you can actually apply it in intense situations.

And and so you're kind of always under the microscope.

So back then that we didn't have an FTO program and matter of

fact, I worked shift work before I even went to the Academy.

So that that was is just a different era.

I remember, you know, working nights, of course, I mean,

that's you get the worst shift you could possibly they can

possibly give you and make sure that you really, really want the

job. And I remember like, you know,

3:00 in the morning, everybody went off duty.

I'm like, wait a minute, like I'm by myself.

Like there I, I have no, no real knowledge to draw from FRA from

other than what kind of that men, you know, the mentality

like, you know, you need to have some, you need to have some

knowledge base to draw to make decisions, you know, like use of

force, for example. I mean, I, I had no intimate

knowledge of, you know, how to apply or use force.

And so luckily we skated through that and everything was fine and

went to the Academy, graduated the Academy, came back and the,

the program was just right around with the guy that I was

going to replace. And yeah, I rode around with him

for a couple weeks and then it was off to the off to the races.

They just kind of pop you in a spot and tell you to be a cop.

And, and so there's a lot of different, different aspects of

the job, right? I mean, you can make it whatever

you want. And obviously responding to

calls, everything from barking dogs to, you know, domestic

violence to bar fights. Early 2000s there we had a

really large methane population and it was a little rowdy back.

It was it was rowdier than I'm just overall than it is today.

And I remember, I mean, every, it was just expected that on a

Friday night and a Saturday night, we were going to one of

the bars and, and dealing with an issue, you know, So, yeah,

just jumped in and did that, you know, and I always wanted to

also was proactive in my approach.

Sometimes when it was, when it was calm, like I would, you

know, 3 O clock in the morning. 2 two reasons.

One, I wanted, I was tired and, and, but I would walk downtown

and, and rattle the doors to all, the all the businesses just

to make sure that they were, they were locked or someone

didn't break into them or whatever.

Just just just to be a little proactive about things and you

know, I made traffic again like I, I covered earlier as a 19

year old, I was I, I'd like to say I'm a really good driver,

but I mean a core back then according to the law.

Maybe I I wasn't I. Draw a distinction I I make this

point with my wife all the time. I'm a very skilled driver.

It depends on how you define good, you know, Do you, do you

drive undistracted all the time and follow all the traffic laws?

That's probably not me, but I'm a very skilled driver.

And so I, I would make, I would make traffic stops, but my, my

main goal was always to have interactions with people That

was the driver. It was like, well, there I was

not a huge ticket guy. Like it's better for traffic.

You know, I'd always, I'd always try to modify behavior and

correct things, but I wasn't, it was more of making contact with

people, making sure that there wasn't something else that was

more urgent or dire. You know, they were.

And so that was kind of my, that was kind of my life with as a

patrolman in that I, again, being from the, in the outdoor

industry and being outdoors all the time, like I have a, a,

probably an unhealthy relationship with firearms.

Like I absolutely love them. I collect them.

I know, well, you know, we've, we've had the conversation.

So that led to, again, going back into the teaching stuff

where I ended up going down to the Academy and getting

specialized training and use of force and firearms.

And I've held that certification with the, the state for most of

my career. And what that, what that looks

like is I, I would always, there was a, there's a standard that

we have to as, as law enforcement in the state of

Wyoming, you have to meet the standard and pass the pass the

test. So I was always training new

people or actually doing remedial training with some of

the old people and trying to get them up to the new standard.

And so that's always been something I've always enjoyed.

Is, is, is firearms, anything, any type of firearm or, or

discipline with firearm, whether it's from shooting long range

competitions to shooting pistols to shooting shotguns, which I

can't, but I, I still like shooting them.

And so really those are that was, that was the big motivation

behind, behind becoming a firearms instructor.

With that comes a use of force and structure, a use of force

instructor. So you are, you know, you're,

you're tasked with training people when they can apply and

when they cannot apply force directly through, you know, the,

the 4th amendment and and etcetera.

So that is, that's kind of in a nutshell, what I've, what I've

done and as a patrolman, Fast forward, there was a, a position

open opened in the schools back then.

We had a, a school resource officer position.

And at this point in my life, I had a two, OK, I had a grant was

3 and Micah was her correction. Garrett was just born.

And so working shift work and working nights and everything

else is not as conducive to just a consistent family life.

And so and I, I do feel like, I mean, my dad and my mom are both

teachers, right? And so that I feel like that

some of that just was naturally, I guess just passed along, but I

thought, man, that'd be, that'd be an interesting and, and

challenging different aspect to the job.

So I applied for that position and went through the testing

process for that and was offered that position where that came a

whole different set of rules and training and like what that

looks like. And also became a DARE

instructor and would teach 3rd grade, 5th grade and 7th grade

students in the, in the school districts and in the schools in,

in Johnson County. But the shift in like your

approach to law enforcement is, is different when you're in, in

that setting. I always looked at it as two

primary things. One, the safety and protection

of this, the school that I'm in, the safety and protection of

them from primarily an active shooter.

That was always my, my, my focus.

And 2nd, have a, the ability to have, well in law enforcement

terms, to call it community oriented policing.

And that is giving law enforcement and the public

opportunities to have a positive interaction.

You know, law enforcement is reactive in nature.

Like we can't, we can't just go to a call and you know, there

has to, there has to be an action for us to react to,

especially in use of force. And I'm not just going to show

up at somebody's house and just like, well, I'm just going to

start sifting through his stuff and seeing if he's got, you

know, dope. It's not, it's not, it's not how

it works, right? We have to have, we have to have

reasons and probable cause and articulable suspicion and stuff

like that to actually go through it.

So, you know, perfect example, I'm not going to go to

somebody's door and knock on their door and say, how's, how's

the marriage tonight? You know, I'm going to show up

when we get a 911 call from the neighbor that says there's a,

there's a lot of screaming and yelling and fighting going on at

this residence, right? And so that's kind of just the,

it's reactive in nature. The flip side of that coin.

And so I spent six years doing with that mindset and, and going

into the schools, it shifted to being a community oriented

police officer. And there is no, to me, there's

no better way to have a positive interaction with a law

enforcement officer then as a school resource officer.

I mean, I had, you know, a hundred 150 positive

interactions with students and staff every day I went to work,

you know, I dealt with, you know, thefts and bullying and,

you know, MI PS tobacco and stuff like that.

But overall, I mean, my job was just to because, well, people

are going to have, you're going to get naturally persuaded,

whether it's through actual, you know, actual meeting somebody in

law enforcement, just like I was persuaded by that one cop.

You know, I mean, at that moment in my life, I was like, you

know, this guy's a jerk. Like he doesn't have, I'm not

denying the fact that I was speeding, but I'm going to argue

that I don't need to be talked down to, right?

And so that was my perception of law enforcement prior to being

in law enforcement. Now, I can tell you, sitting on

the other side of that table and actually trying to enforce laws,

I can see how people get a little frustrated with mankind.

Yeah. And.

So, well, yeah, there's an argument to be made that just

like most people, their interaction with law enforcement

isn't positive because they're they've done something wrong.

It's reactionary. With law enforcement.

Your primary interaction with people is someone who has done

something wrong. You don't get to interact on a

regular basis with the upstanding citizen that's

serving their community. You interact with someone that

has broken a law. Yeah, I mean, I doubt you've

ever woke up 1 morning, Eric. And and then the birds are

chirping and life is just good and just like, man, I just need

to call the Police Department, tell them about how great, great

a day I'm having, right? It just doesn't.

It's just not how it works. You're always calling because

there's something going on. And that that actually that kind

of ties into like my principle in and how I've always

approached law enforcement is that it might not be an

emergency to me because I come to work and I deal with

emergencies, right? But I always kept telling myself

how no matter how mundane or how silly this is, this is their

emergency. If they picked up the phone and

they called for law enforcement in their life at that moment,

they feel like they need help. And so even before I'd get to

the call, I, I was always trying to talk myself out of like, Oh,

this is going to be dumb. This is a just another

monotonous call, blah, blah. You know what I mean?

I mean, that was kind of the, the speech I'd give myself.

Like, OK, I understand that you, you can probably step into the

space, come come up with a resolution and fix their

problem. And, you know, maybe under 3

seconds because it's not a problem, but it's a problem to

them. And it's always about people's

perception. And so, you know, just tying

back into the my first interaction with that, that cop,

that's, that's, that's the approach that I've always tried

to bring to the table with every interaction I've had with people

in law enforcement. And so that's kind of always

been a big driver or thing that's in my mind is it's, it

might not be in my emergency, but it's or an emergency to me.

It might not rise that level, but it's theirs.

And so, yeah, I think it just shifts my brain a little bit

into being a little bit more compassionate, a little bit more

understanding, you know, in in policing in Buffalo, WY in

Johnson County is it's, it's a, it's a huge opportunity to be

more than just writing tickets and going on.

I mean, there's, you know, I have, I have, I have friends in

law enforcement all throughout the state and other states.

And you get in some bigger populations and you show up, get

on the computer, there are 6 calls pending and you just start

and you just go from 1:00 to 1. So you're looking at trying to

find a resolution, shut it down, find a resolution, shut it down.

And in, in Buffalo, you have the opportunity to show up.

Listen. And try to try to maybe help, I

mean, be, be more of a service, not just, you know, show up, be

the hammer, you know, all right, this is it Like, so we've got

XYZ, this probable cause this guy goes to jail.

OK, we're done. Like move on about your day.

And so it really affords you the opportunity to get to try to

listen and, and come up with a, a resolution that's, that's fair

and obviously statute based decisions.

But yeah, there there is, you know, this is a random call.

I don't remember. There's a lady that had call 911

and it was, I was the only officer on it was so it was

probably 3:30 in the morning, 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning.

We that they would have that one, at least one officer at

that time that would, that'd work 24 hour coverage and then

we'd have people on call out if you needed them.

And so we get 91 call, 1911 call.

And this lady's just hysterically crying and the

dispatcher can't get anything out of it.

And so I go flying up to the house.

I black out, you know, a block away because I don't know what's

going on. So I'm going to, so I'm kind of

making a more of a tactical approach to the house to hear,

see, see, hear whatever, try to get some gain some Intel on what

the heck's going on in the house.

And I go up, all the lights are off, but I can hear this woman

just sobbing in in the house. And so I knock on the door,

announce myself. And she came out and she's like,

can I talk to you? And I said, yeah, what's going

on? So I'm saying I'm trying to pry

like, is there an emergency? Is there an issue?

I mean, is there is there someone bleeding?

Is there someone hurt? Is there, you know, all of the

things. And, and, and Fast forward, she

was mad because her husband had made a comment about her, her,

her aging body and her looks and how she didn't, she didn't feel

like he loved her anymore. Now perfect example.

Like here's the thing. There's not a state statute for

that, right? It's not you.

You can show up. You're like, OK, that sounds

great. Let's get you some mental health

services. And I'm out, right?

But there's no mental health service to call out at 3:30

without waking up, you know, multiple people.

And this woman just needed someone to sit, listen to her.

And I remember sitting on that porch.

I drive by the house. I can remember the, the, the,

the house. I cannot remember the person's

name. I can't remember what you looked

like. I remember just sitting there

and just letting her talk and just, you know, it was a 45

minute call, you know, and I just sat there and I kept King,

you know, Buffalo, Buffalo 6 status, Buffalo 6 status.

Like I'm 10, four, everything's fine.

Like there's no urgency, there's no crime.

There's but perfect example at 4:15 in the morning.

What else do I have better to do?

I mean, I can go back and drive around circles and drink coffee,

but this woman needed somebody just to hear her in in that

moment. And that was AI mean.

That's just, that's one of those calls that just stood out that,

you know, that's thank God that we live in Buffalo, WY and law

enforcement does still have the opportunity to maybe step, step

into that role for, for one of our, our residents.

I mean, law enforcement is supposed to serve and protect

you. You get to step into that

service role a little bit more. Yeah, we ride it on the on the

sides of our cars, but that that's you can actually apply

that as well. And in, in bigger agencies,

sometimes that might get deluded, not because of out of

necessity, you know, I mean, you, you're going from protect,

protect, protect, protect to deal with this issue to deal

with issue issue. And so you don't have that, you

don't have 30 minutes to sit on somebody's porch and just here.

And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's an awesome community.

And I do I, I've, I've loved serving Johnson County in that

capacity, you know, in my career.

That's awesome. Well, in that same vein, are

there any other funny, scary, exciting stories that you've

experienced in your time in law enforcement that you might be

able to share with us? That's a loaded question.

Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of different a lot of

different stories. So I was asked that question

back in 2000 and maybe 14, I don't know.

I there's I was voted the the police officer of the year for

our our county and and. The word you won twice at that.

Yeah. And so I was back in the day,

they'd bring you up and, you know, you never know if you're

going to get it or not. So it's kind of improv.

And I remember walking up on the stage and they asked me that

very question, like, tell us a quick story about your, you

know, this year and what, you know, give me a, a case.

And I was working at that time. And it, it still is the, the

most egregious child sexual abuse case that I'd, I'd been

and I, I'd, I had completely consumed my career in, in this.

And I'll get to, I'll tell that story.

But they asked me that and I'm like, I can't answer any of

that. Like I can't talk about the

things that I like the interview that I just did.

I can't talk about any of these these things.

And the only thing that came out and people still make fun of me

today. I said, well, I caught a badger

and they're so stupid. There was a badger downtown his

middle of the summer. And so I'm again, I'm an

outdoorsman, right? And I, I, I've trapped and

everything else. So I'm like the hey, Adrian,

there's a badger out there. So there was a, they're painting

the mural at the, at the square and this badger head was hissing

and mad and the, the artist was like on, it's on, on the

scaffolding and called and said, there's a badger that won't let

me get off the scaffolding. So I, I show up.

We have an animal control officer at the time and, and she

is like, I, I, I mean, I can deal with cats, I can deal with

dogs, but I mean, and so I'm like cat, we'll figure this out.

And so then it, but then I like assess the environment and I'm

like, Oh, I've got no less than 50 tourists.

I mean, this is the middle of July, super busy.

Everyone's heard the, the commotion.

So now I have a, a very captive audience of how I, I addressed

this badger. And so I went over there and I

got the, I got Karen was the animal control officer at the

time. I got the catch pole and I, I

got this badger kind of cornered and through a through the the

the catch pull on it and tightened it up and believe it

or not, a badger can literally turn its I swear it can turn

inside out. Oh, they're Badgers are

incredible. Everybody thinks they're like,

you know, friendly little critters.

But oh man, the, the, the claws, the teeth, the the mobility, the

strength on those things, they're kind of terrifying.

He was fairly agitated when I got there and then I tried to,

I, I put a, a catch pull around his neck which he completely

pulled out of. But he he knew the game at that

point. And so I could only imagine

watching that unfold. Long story short, I ended up

catching the badger with the catch pole, putting it and, and

putting in the animal control officer car and we drove it

outside of town and dropped it off.

But I tell that story because that was that was the one that

was going through my mind, right?

And so being in a small community, I get to catch

Badgers. But in the same moment, like in

the same part of my career, I'm I'm working a you know, a case

where the guy had been had already been convicted.

A2 checked solved child sexual assaults.

We had a report of an another one and it was it was one of

those most hurt. It was it was the I've seen a

lot of bad, but it was the hardest and worst case that I've

ever worked. So the as I was talking about

being a school resource officer and you know, there's another

part that I find that I found that one I was, I was, I was in

law enforcement. So I was AI was an authority

figure, but is also a trusted adult, right?

I'm teaching hundreds of kids dare and just walking down the

halls and like it's kind of cool.

Like you kind of be, you're kind of like the grandpa of the

school, you know, like, like your job is just like knuckle

people on high 5 and just have fun and just have a positive

interaction and so. I know you really leaned into

that. And did you did hunter safety

with the kids and really tried to create some opportunities for

them to engage with you and engage in the outdoors, a

passion that you had and. Firearm safety like there's this

a, a huge component that you know that I, I feel like that's

something needs to be taught, whether you are an advocate with

firearms or not, man. And just having a, a knowledge

of, hey, this is the bad end of the gun and this is not, this is

what a trigger looks like like. And just trying to encourage

kids, like if you find a firearm, don't touch it.

Like if you don't know what you're doing, don't touch it.

And even if you do know what you're doing, make sure that

follow fire basic firearm safety rules to keep that muzzle point

in a safe direction at all times.

So really I felt like that was a great opportunity for me just to

to get that that message out and hopefully alleviate whatever.

So I I do the Eddie the Eagle with all of my kids.

Stop, don't touch, run away, tell an adult.

Sorry I I interrupted you there. You're talking about being a a

trusted person for the students in the school.

I think that that just naturally came along with the territory.

But with that, like I would have I found a it just seemed like

consistently I'd have kids would report things to me and think,

you know, OK, can I talk to the officer Keeler?

You know, so we'd we'd and, you know, that opened up a kind of

my eyes wide open to, you know, that are, you know, the

vulnerable in our our community are need need protection and

they need help. And, you know, I dealt with some

cases like that, but it really just, it ramped it up because of

now it was something that and they're, they're they're very

hard cases to want to walk through with people and also to,

you know, extract truth and then have consequences for.

So that really I started, I started going down that path of

being involved in about everything that was juvenile

related in, in Buffalo and Johnson County, because we have

a, we have a child sexual assault like a task force

essentially that, that is comprised of sheriff's to bet

deputies and PD officers, county attorneys, department of Family

Services. And, and instead of having to

talk about, talk to a kid four times or five times with a

counselor and everybody else about, you know, the worst

experience they've ever gone through.

It's a hey, as adults, let's get together, come up with a plan,

have a, a forensic interview, have, have the survivor tell

their story one time and we can share information like adults.

And so that really has been, it's been huge because you, you

work as a team. It's more of a team approach on,

on some pretty gnarly stuff. So why I, I got into that and I

will never like, I guess if I had a calling or a purpose in

law enforcement, it is to protect vulnerable people, to

protect to, just to, to kids and, and vulnerable adults like,

and I'll never forget that case that I was talking about that,

that the, the bad one. I'll never forget sitting with

the victim. She was a, an 8 year old and you

could tell she had something to, she had a story to tell and she

was what was just scared, didn't know how to say it, didn't know

what to do. And I remember sitting with the

DFS agent that was working with and at a table kind of like us

and, and she had actually got up and she'd, she'd crawled down

underneath the table and she was just balled up like, and just

would talk to us, but didn't want to make eye contact, which,

and, and just her, her body language was, I mean, you know,

Fast forward and go through a lot of training.

I, it's, it's, it's an absolute correct response for someone

that's, that's been through a significant trauma.

And I'll remember, I always remember the, the DFS agent that

I was working with said, you know, we're, we're, we're people

that you can talk to and you're trusted.

And Adrian, Adrian's a cop and he can keep you safe.

And jeez, this is AI. Haven't, I haven't thought about

this or verbalized it in years. But that little girl crawled

over and she sat on my right foot and she latched onto my leg

and I could just feel her whole body shivering.

And I, I looked down at that girl and she said, you can keep

me safe. And I looked her in the eyes and

I said, I promise I'll keep you safe.

And at that point, I wasn't going to break that promise.

I was not going to break that promise to that girl.

And I went to the ends of the earth.

To keep that promise. Fast forward, I did and you

know, the gentleman went to prison and I actually went to

the Wyoming Supreme Court and it was upheld there.

And so that's that, that moment was a defining moment in my

career. And I at that moment, I said,

this is this is what I'm supposed to do.

It's nobody wants to walk away through that stuff.

It's just messy. It's nasty.

You don't want to hear about that stuff.

You don't have to, you know, there's, I mean, really it's one

of those things that as a culture and as a society, it's

easier to just, well, if it's not, if it's not blatantly in my

face, then I can just kind of not.

I know it's there. I know it's a part of society.

I know it's a part of humans, but I also know that I don't

really want to dive into that and figure it out.

And I was the same way. But I tell you that that moment

completely changed the trajectory of my career and my

resolve to all of a sudden pulling somebody over for going

6 miles an hour wasn't important to me.

All of a sudden, you know, I still did those things, but it

was a it became kind of well, God use that moment put me right

where he needed to be and shifted my mind and my heart.

And I also learned that I never make promises anymore.

I mean, that's, you know, I tell him I try my best, I'll do

whatever I can. I'm going to try to keep you

safe. I'm going to do and all those

things, but doesn't change how I approach the case.

But it definitely changed. I just was going to break my

word to that little girl and I, you know, Fast forward, I see

her once in a while. She's a young adult and to see

her flourishing, I guess in society and also know the amount

of evil that she endured just makes my, I just thank God that

he used me in that capacity, you know?

Yeah, One of my favorite questions I like to ask people

is what is the their favorite and least favorite aspect of

their job. I have a feeling those two

things probably overlap for you. Yeah, you're right, You know,

Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's

sometimes it's the the wading through some really, really

tough stuff with people. And I absolutely hate it.

I hate to see some of the things that that people endure and, and

there's, there's a time where you just feel like, man, am I am

I going to make a difference, you know, or whatever.

Maybe I watched too many John Wayne movies when I was a kid,

you know, and it's like, man, I'm going to step in and just

then and, and solve the problem and fix the fix all of this and

wrap it up in a 30 minute episode, you know, but the, the

reality of it is, is it's, it's real people and it's, it's

different when it's, it's something to read or you see,

see on the news and you see things.

But when you're in the middle of it and it's your job to try to

keep that, that survivor, I don't like to use the word

victim, but you know, that survivor of a, a child sexual

assault or something to help protect them, to keep them safe.

I mean, that's I hope it doesn't sound cliche, but that truly is

my motivation for why I'm still in law enforcement today.

You, you stepped into another question I had on my list here.

I think law enforcement is one of those jobs or one of those

careers that people probably think they understand, but the

the average person probably really has no idea what you do

or what you experience, what it's really like.

What is something that you would like the average person to

understand about the life of the law enforcement officer?

You know, we're at the end of the day, we're all people,

right? And so there's going to be, and

you're often times you're, you're, you're set to make

decisions with just the information that you have at

that moment, right? We're not.

And sometimes there's wrong decisions to be made or that are

made. But in those, in those dynamic

moments where things are rapidly evolving and, and you know, the

wheels are coming off the bus and you have, you know, a half a

second to make a make a decision.

And then you have to stand by that decision or live with that

decision and potentially get critiqued by the rest of the

community or an attorney or whatever.

I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's definitely a, a tough

job. And I, again, I'm, I'm, I'm

thinking of like big picture stuff, like national news stuff

right now when we're talking about that.

And in Buffalo, I feel like we are, you know, in Wyoming, I

feel like we are at least 10 years behind that trend of, you

know, the anti law enforcement thought process.

So, and I, again, I'm thankful for, for living in Johnson

County and living here because the, the people, there's still

people that support law enforcement and it is a tough

job And being a first responder, whether you're, you know, an EMT

or a fireman or being the, you know, the on call mental health

worker that has to come out and sit with a, a mom that just lost

her son or child. You know, that, I mean, some

pretty tough stuff to, to sit through.

And, and, and so there it does it.

It's just, it's not going to say it's a thankless job because

it's not. I mean, there's a lot of people

that come up and to me and say, you know, thank you.

And there there's a lot more, just like you said, there's a

lot more that goes into it. I mean you, you're, you're

filtering through. You know, decisions that you're

making through, you know, the constitution you're feeling.

You mean you don't want to make a poor decision That, that

because we, we live, whether whether you agree or not with,

with our, our society, my stance is that it's, it's still the

best society in the world. We still have the ability to say

what we want to say. We still have the ability to

have firearms. We still have the ability to not

just have a cop show up and kick down your door and go through

your stuff. And you know, that's pretty good

because there's a lot of places in the world that that

absolutely happens. And you have to filter decisions

through through that matrix. You have to filter decisions

through, you know, the safety of you, you have to filter those

decisions through the safety of others.

So there's a lot of things that a lot of dynamics that are going

on even on a, even on a traffic stop, you know what I mean?

That was something you said to me a few years ago that kind of

turned that light on for me was, you know, there'd be a few

incidents in the news at that time where somebody got pulled

over for a routine traffic stop and pulled out a concealed

firearm and start firing at the the officer pulling him over.

And I think we were talking about body armor at the time.

And, and you said, you know, for the person getting pulled over,

that's a pretty routine interaction.

You know, you, you broke a traffic law, you get pulled

over, you get a warning, you get a ticket.

You know what to expect from the officer.

They, they may or may not be rude to you, but it's, it's a

routine thing. And for the officer conducting

that incident, that pulling that person over, there's a 99.9%

chance it's a routine thing. And there's the point 1% chance

that that person you pulled over is doing something more than a

simple traffic stop there. There's something more illicit

going on and your life is on the line.

So you're right if. You if you're caught flat on

your feet, you don't get to go see your kids, your kids have to

your, your wife has to bury you like that's a that's a certain

weight that you know, and, and the, the idea that it can't, you

know, happen here it again, we have we have a, a phenomenal

community. We have a phenomenal state, I'd

say overall, but I mean, just just yesterday we had an active

shooter in bags Wyoming, like population, what, 600 maybe.

So I mean, demographically, I guess what I've always said is

like, yes, we have we, we live in a very safe community.

We live in a in in a phenomenal community with with a good moral

backbone, backbone and and kind of compass, but there's still

people involved and that's the reality.

I mean, bags Wyoming, 600 people just shot a deputy ended up in a

in a high speed chase. I can't speak to that because I

don't know all the details, but I do know a deputy was injured

and yeah, so they're mate. Yeah.

And that's a a level of stress, a level of it brings a new

perspective to those interactions.

Most of the time when the when the average typical law abiding

citizen has an interaction with law enforcement, it you know,

it's a pain, it's a hassle, They didn't enjoy it.

I often hear people, you know, comment about how they're the

the law enforcement officer was a little too too aggressive or,

you know, whatever. And what most people I think

don't get or what was open. My eyes were open to that day

when you with you explaining that is like that, that door is

always open. Like the person getting pulled

over doesn't ever think the deputy's just going to whip out

their gun and shoot them, you know, like they don't have to

deal with that stress. And you have to be prepared for

that eventuality. You have to deal with that

stress. You have that weighing on you.

And yet you also have to conduct yourself in a way that is

reasonable for the average law abiding citizen.

That was speeding a little bit. And it that's a, that's a heavy

dynamic. It's it's, it's definitely

unique for sure. You know, and I, I can't

imagine, I don't know of any other profession where you that

that's your day-to-day interaction.

I mean, obviously I've gone, I've you go to work and you have

10 interactions with, with people and, and so a lot of

people eat the perception that I've I've heard in the past is

like, man, he was really aggressive or he was like, you

know, we were standing outside. Why are you walking up with your

hand on your gun? Yeah, or yeah, you know, but but

the, you know, in that scenario, you you get called to.

I'll just use one that I've been to Ben is, you know, you get

called to a bar fight. You see a guy that matches the

description, it's winter time in Buffalo, has a Carhartt coat on.

He has both his hands in his pockets, right.

And we're walking up. I'm.

I'm cold too. But I mean, the very first thing

I'm going to do is, you know, I'm not going to say hi.

My name's Officer Keeler. I'd love to chat with you.

I'm saying show me your hands. Like get your hands out of your

pockets. Let me see your hands.

And every time they go back to reaching into that, into their

hand pocket, you're like, why what's in there?

I mean, so they're just just that simple command of like, I,

I want to deal with the situation.

I need to be able to, again, in my mind, show respect, not talk

down to this person because, and also try to mitigate the, the

chances of me getting harmed or other people around them.

And, and so, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a dance for sure of

trying to, to work that every day.

And, and then you go home and there's just a I, you know, the

one thing that I would say that I'd like a big take away for,

for law enforcement or people to know about law enforcement is

that it being in that, that like type of alertness or

preparedness and still be able to, you know, lean across to

tailgate and, and talk with somebody, but still have that,

that part of your brain. That's like, OK, like we're

talking about things where everything's going fine, but I

still need to be, you know, paying attention to body

language. I need to be paying attention to

his hands. I need to be paying attention to

all these things because, well, it, it could happen.

You never know what's going to happen.

And so just that cycle in your brain, I mean, it's, it's

fatiguing. It really is.

I mean a 10 hour shift and every person that you see, and I know

every law enforcement officer that that's listening to this

will know exactly what I'm talking about.

But I mean, you go out to a restaurant and it is back to the

wall. You're sitting there trying to

talk to your family, talk to the kids, but you are scanning

every. I mean it just like system

overload. Like there's like, there's,

there's a guy over there he's looking at, he made eye contact,

there's this, there's that, who's this?

And so in your head, you're, that never really shuts down.

You know, you're just super, it's not paranoia.

It's not, it's just it's awareness that bad things happen

and it could happen to you at any moment.

And and so you'll, you, you live your life in that.

You know, it's the only time that, that I think for myself

personally, when I, when I kind of could just let that guard

down was when I was out in the middle of nowhere or in my house

with my family and I'd already made a security check, make sure

everything's locked and I know where all my firearms are.

You know what I mean? Like, it's so it's not really

gone gone, but it's, you know, you can just finally, OK, sit

down and eat popcorn, watch a movie and, and hang out with the

with the family. So yeah, definitely a

interesting thing to put your, your mind through, you know, on

repeat for 20 or 1530 years, whatever your, your career ends

up being so. Yeah, Well, yeah, we've talked

about firearms a few times. That was one of the areas you

and I connected early on. We both, I think you called it

an unhealthy affinity for firearms.

And I, I would argue that. But for the the gun guys out

there, the, the gear geeks, can you tell us a little bit about

kind of what your loadout is as a sheriff's deputy?

What, what kind of a weapon do you carry?

What kind of weapons do you have access to?

What does your uniform look like as far as tools outside of

weapons or body armor? That kind of thing.

So a handgun, 9mm and you know, have a patrol rifle and shotgun

as a, as an investigator. Now I carry just a just a

handgun primarily with me and I'm usually dressed in, you

know, business attire or something, something to that.

But if I'm, if I'm going to an urgent call, like I have, you

know, my vest with all my, all the rest of my gear, my kid on

it that I can, that I can put on.

And I always do that before I get to something.

So if I'm going getting called out or if I'm going to serve a

search warrant or if I'm going to, you know, do anything that's

that's more high risk, I guess that's when I then, you know,

just put my, my vest on. It has my, you know, Taser and

all the other cool gadgets on it.

So. OK.

If you are elected Sheriff, is there any changes you would make

to the the equipment or the gear that your deputies would be

issued? I mean, there's always things

that you would want to maybe improve, but really, again,

being the firearms instructor, like I have a pretty, as far as

the, the, the weapon systems are concerned, like I, I was pretty

influential in, in our decision making process.

So I'm standing behind them like I'm thinking we did a pretty

good job, you know, But I mean, as far as gear is concerned,

there's always, I mean, just just wear and tear on vehicles

and trying to keep, you know, our Taser systems up to date.

And you know, that's it's, it's just all cost money and

everything just like everything else in the in the world,

everything keeps becoming inflated.

But yeah, is there, is there probably higher speed newer

things out there? Yeah.

But I, I feel like we are adequately, you know, geared up

for most situations that we're going to be tasked to deal with.

So but. You just mentioned it, you know,

Tasers and advancement of technology and things there, how

you've had 20 years in law enforcement.

How have you seen things change in the law enforcement world

over those two decades of service?

Oh yeah, it's a bunch, you know, prior to when I started there

and Tasers might have been invented, but there wasn't, They

were not on every cop. It was AI.

Remember when we got that? We got our first one, we didn't

have the budget to buy multiple Tasers, so we had to trade them

out every shift. So that's just one, one thing

that I've seen, you know, the FTO program, like I mentioned

earlier, I ended up as, while I was working with the Police

Department, I became an FTO trainer, went to specialized

training for that and came back and actually had a, a

standardized like platform that like, I wanted to make sure

that, that before we sent you out and made you made you have

to make those split second decisions that we were talking

about that one, you're proficient with your firearm 2.

You were proficient in being able to understand use of force

and when and when it cannot be applied.

And, you know, basic tactics and things like that because I, I

just so I, I, I, I delve into that really trying to teach that

in that capacity for the Police Department report writing stuff.

I mean, there is. We don't use our.

Notepad and pencil anymore. No, that used to be on on This

is prior to my time, but I remember going through old cases

and it was on, it was on, you know, little cards like it was

and and reports were essentially like on this time in this state

observed so and so driving erratically made traffic stop.

He was drunk, arrested. Like, I mean, it was like, all

right, like we covered the bases, I guess.

And you know, and, and, and right now, you know, with

everything is definitely scrutinized, I would say a

little bit more than that. Yeah, I was going to say he went

from that to body cams that record everything.

Yeah, so, so definitely, definitely an evolving, you

know, space as far as techniques and equipment and so.

Yeah. What are the biggest threats,

issues or problems that you see in our community or our culture

today? What what are the things that

are kind of on your radar that you're thinking about as

potentially being the sheriff and the the chief law

enforcement officer in the county?

What are you on the lookout for? You know, I guess big picture

things that I I see is that, I mean the, the scare of illegal,

you know, narcotics, for example, they're not made here.

They're, they're all brought here, right?

And so trying to figure out how to push back against that is

definitely an uphill battle. I mean, we've, we have, you

know, fentanyl and methamphetamine use and, and

just the gamut of it. It's again, there's people

involved. So it's no different than Denver

or Billings in in a sense it's just on a, on a, on a way

smaller scale, right. So, but we still have, you know,

I mean, we have work, have a great working relationship with

surrounding counties, surrounding agencies, other task

force members and department DCI.

And so working in in I guess in conjunction and harmony with

with those other agencies really helps us or allows us to push

back in in that area. Again, the thing that's been so

close to, to me and the things that I, I walk through most of

the time are crimes against children and crimes against

vulnerable adults. And so that really is where my,

my focus has always been. And I would say asking, asking

me that question, that's where that's where my, my eyes are

focused asking, you know, a different, one of the other

deputies, you know, the undershare, for example, is,

works, works and assists a lot with a lot of our, our, our dope

or narcotics cases. And so I know that's kind of the

arena that he really is. If you asked him that question,

that would be his, his priority, priority or not priority, but

his I guess what he his perception of, of the things

that that we can see in the community.

So how is your job or your viewpoint going to change given

that that, you know, you get to see different aspects, different

problems than other people in the department moving into the

sheriff position where you're responsible for all of it?

What do you anticipate that change being like or how are you

going to maybe adapt to being able to see the whole picture

rather than the areas that you've been focused on?

It's, it's, it's just, I mean, it's just kind of a broader

view, right? It's just a you're take a step

back and look at the big picture and you're going to have to look

at there's, you know, there's a lot of state statutes out there,

right? And so there's a lot of

different. So you have to have a really

vast knowledge base of what is a crime and what isn't a crime.

And my main intent behind running for sheriff is to be

able to pass along the knowledge that I have to the next

generation of law enforcement because I know, I mean, I'm not

going to be, I'm not going to be doing it when I'm 72 years old,

right? And so I think that's, that's

kind of the big vision for me is to pass along not only the

knowledge, but the desire to step into that place.

Like have them have that moment when when I had that moment

where I said, this is I'm drawing a line right here.

And I'm not going to allow, I'm going to push back in every

capacity I can against this part.

And but you also have to be just approachable and open and be

able to, I mean, you're going to be dealing, you know, as an

investigator, I deal with the child crimes, but I've, I've

done a lot, like, I mean, I've done white collar, white collar

crimes, you know, in the, in the millions of dollars, I've done

felony level thefts, I've done livestock thefts, I've done.

I know a couple years ago I gave you a call and you were on a

stakeout do for a narcotics thing when we were chatting on

the phone. So I know your experience is

pretty broad. Yeah.

And so I do have a a broad understanding of everything.

When I when I keep going back to the the the the child stuff, I'm

telling you that it was it was that moment, that defining

moment of me that I mean that that's just where I mean it.

It, it shifted something in me and I'm, I'm completely

comfortable in doing a gamut of other investigations, but that

was the And so, yeah, I've, I've, I've had narcotic

felonies, I've dealt with, like I said, white collar crime,

thefts, livestock thefts. Don't find their wives

attractive anymore. Yeah, not a crime, but it was

definitely a you know, I've kind of segwayed out of out of a lot

of that. Most of the stuff that we get

are, you know, all the death investigations, you know, I'm

you, you go through those and try to figure out well, if is

there. So you have to approach that

with the with the same level of intensity if you going into it

as if you knew why it happened, right.

So I mean, if you have an unattended death, I'm going to

go through the the procedure, the process to, to be able to

figure out what occurred and why and so.

I think a big role of leadership is mission and vision, and it

sounds like you have that in spades for your own career and

are excited to share that with the the rest of the department

and the next generations of finding that mission and vision

of how they can serve and protect.

Oh, absolutely. You know, the other, the other

aspect is that I really want to make sure that the department

still continues to play well with others.

You know what I mean? Like, I mean, we have such a, we

have such a, a unique position in the state of, I mean, like, I

do not know of any other agency in, in Wyoming where the, the

Police Department and the, and the Sheriff's Office work under

the same roof, let alone work together.

And I'm, I've, I've talked with a lot of different, a lot of

different agencies throughout the state and they're, they're

just absolutely floored that we can work cohesively like that.

And it's not just between our two departments, but I mean, we

work with, we assist how patrol. I've during one of my

investigations, end up writing a search warrant for a Game and

Fish violation and, and worked alongside with game with Game

and Fish. I've worked with US Forest

Service, I've worked with the FBI.

I've, and so you know, I have, I have fostered and the, the

department as well as fostered a lot of positive interaction with

multiple state and federal level law enforcement agencies.

And at the end of the day, it just gives us more tools in our

our tool belt and you know it it to help provide safety and

protection to our communities. Is there an opinion you once

held strongly that you've changed because of your

experience? Well, going back to the, the

traffic stopped when I was in high school, you know, my

opinion of that, of that officer, I would say I guess I,

I don't, I don't, I don't agree with how how he how he treated

me. But I can tell you that I have a

better understanding of the things that he might have been

going through during his day, you know, so and so I guess,

yeah, I can just see that that being a a big one for me.

OK, what mistake have you made that you learned the most from?

Like career oriented, is that where we're we're talking about

a life oriented? I'm good either way.

You know, I'm it's hard to hard to narrow it down.

Like I have a, an understanding that I'm, I'm human and I'm

going to make mistakes and I'm always trying to take those

mistakes and learn from them. I mean, and try to try to modify

the next outcome, you know, and that's our thing.

Law enforcement is nothing's exactly the same.

I mean, you can have a traffic stop, for example, but not very

often time it's not the same person.

And if it is the same person, it's not the same day.

And if even if it is the same day, you don't know what's

occurred in their life between those times, right?

Or And so you can kind of formulate like, OK, this these

are the things that work. These are things that didn't

work. And you know, I'm going to use

that knowledge to to help promote a better outcome for

that that problem. You know, the next time

something similar that comes up, it's hard to narrow it down to 1

because I feel like I'm learning everyday like I'm I'm, I'm never

not just set up and I got this figured out.

Check moving on to the next thing, right.

And so, yeah, it's hard for me to just to speak to, to one

specific thing because it, it's just a, a continuing loop of,

Hey, I did this and I did this well, and it worked out.

So I'm going to, I'm going to file that into do that again.

And I did this, it didn't work out well.

And I'm going to file into don't do that again.

And if I'm not going to do that again, what can I do to have a

positive outcome? And that's just how I approach

everything. I mean, from parenting to going

and buying lunch. I mean, if I go to buy lunch and

I don't like the flavour of something, I'm not going to

order that again, right? And so yeah, it's just, it's

just a, it's a continual loop in, in in my life of, of always,

always learning. Yeah, that's one of the things,

like I mentioned earlier, we've been friends for a long time.

And one of the things that I've always appreciated about you is

that humility and humble spirit. And you never have been the guy

that thinks he has all the answers.

You've always been the guy that's made all the mistakes and

has a lot of wisdom from it. And I appreciate that.

I think you look at pretty much everything you do as what could

have gone better. How could I improve this?

And rather than getting stuck in a rut of, to use your example,

you know, the traffic stops well, OK, all of them go bad.

So I'm just going to be be mean, be gruff, be condescending, but

yet you always reflect on it and and try to find a way to make it

better. So.

On the flip side of that, I've seen, you know, I've seen

officers where they spend the 1st 30 minutes of their, their

shift or whatever watching videos on the Internet of

traffic stops that have gone bad, right?

And so, and then you're showing up to the the table with that

and all of a sudden you might not want to make traffic stops,

right? Because you've just, you've just

conditioned your brain. That cop gets pulled over and

gets caught flat footed and it loses his life.

I mean, and that's all over the, I mean, you know, it's all over

the Internet and trying to trying to find that happy

balance of like, OK, and knowing that knowing that this is an

option, this can happen. I need to be prepared

physically, mentally with my tools to be able to protect

myself or people around me or whatever and still walk up to

the door and be approachable. And you know, me, me be be the

guy that that they walk away and say, well, he might have gave me

a ticket, but not a bad guy. You know, I've actually had some

people that I've, I'm arrested for felony level stuff that have

reached out to me. And these are the things that

that I just didn't, I wasn't prepared for when I threw my

name in the in the arena. But I said, man, as you know,

I'm a felon, can't vote for you, but if I could, I would.

And, and because the way you, you, you didn't talk down to me.

You treated me with respect and dignity through it.

And I've been telling you what that's, I mean, that's a sense

of pride for me that I do have. It's like, you know what, I set

this goal 20 years ago. And I mean, to me, that takes a

that takes a lot of selflessness on that person's part to to be

able to say, hey, man, like you treated me, All right.

I did bad things. But through the process, I was

treated like a human being. And I appreciate you for that.

Like getting comments like that, that just texts like randomly

when you're when you put yourself out in the, you know,

the all of a sudden find myself in the political arena like a

man. Yeah, that's a conversation I

would have never had. You're right.

But you know, so that's been really that was an eye opening

interaction and just having, you know, and having not just one,

but multiple people, you know, say, hey, dude, it's.

I I've even before you decide to run for sheriff, we've

experienced that together. I've been out with you and

people have come up and, you know, hey, yeah, this guy

arrested me and you know, he's a great guy.

You you definitely have respect for the people that you've

interacted with, even if that's in a a negative manner.

Oh, that's that. That was always.

Again, that was the at the very beginning meaning of my law

enforcement career. That was one of the goals that I

set for myself was like, I'm and I haven't been perfect.

I haven't. I mean it's, it's, I mean, I

guarantee you there's some people that are listening to

this right now and say, well, he wasn't all that nice to me that

day. But I can tell you the intent

there, the heart was, was always there big picture stuff.

That's that was always one of my drivers was to do that.

So. And I know you told the story

about kind of getting into law enforcement, and that may be

reluctant isn't the right word, but it was, you know, it wasn't

your initial ambition, your dream, what you were headed for.

But you kind of came into it through circumstances.

I understand maybe this campaign and running for sheriff came

about in a similar way. Do you want to speak to that at

all? What what inspired you or drove

you to move from investigator to sheriff?

Sure. Well, again, I was just nose

down doing my thing, working investigations, which is, which

is really what I enjoy the most. I mean, as far as the aspects of

the job, like they're just, they're complex.

It's not. And so I I really enjoy working

through large complex cases. It it's rewarding to me.

It helps me feel and I feel like I'm big picture stuff.

You know, whether I'm doing it for that little girl that was

sitting on my foot or doing it from some the victim that just

was, they know that just lost pay $150,000 through an

embezzlement. You know, whatever the case is,

like I feel like it's, it's, it's big picture stuff.

And the reality is I'm not going to stop doing that.

Like I'm if I become the sheriff, I'm still going to

work. I just don't know in that what

capacity, but I'm not going to just step out of that role.

Like I'm, I'm a professional peace officer and if a shift

needs covered or, you know, someone calls in sick, I've been

there, right? I've, I've had the, I've had

the, the three-year old and the one year old at home and the

wife that is like I am to my Max.

I need help. And if there's nobody else to do

that and I'm that that's going to be my role.

That's as a leader. I think that's what you do is

you step in and, and and I can't ask people to do anything that I

haven't that I wouldn't do. And so that's my, my big vision

is to still be a, a, a working sheriff.

And still because I can't, I can tell people like, Hey, do the XY

and Z. But if you say we get a, a

felony level case to, to be able to, to walk along and our beside

a deputy that might have three years of experience that's never

worked a felony level case from beginning to end.

Like just how's he going to learn that?

If, if there isn't somebody there to train or to pass that

along? I mean, you can read, you can

read cases, you can, you can try to fumble your way through

writing a search warrant. But it'd be, it'd be silly if

you have a man that has the knowledge and the ability to

write a search warrant and walk you through that process.

You know, just an example. So I still feel like I'm going

to feel, you know, be in that capacity to a certain, certain

degree. I understand there's a lot more,

there's a lot more dynamics in in in that seat, but I'm not

going to just set down being a cop.

Yeah, So what? What was it that made you decide

to run for sheriff? Yep.

So I was happy where I was at and the sheriff at current

sheriff had kind of, you know, probably 3 months ago had told

everybody like he was going to run for another term.

And their overall, I think take away was like, cool, like we'll

just keep business as usual. And that decision shifted and,

you know, he came, they came to us and said, I'm, you know, for

other reasons in my life, I'm not going to, I'm not going to

run for sheriff. And that led to, you know, not

all the employees, but you know, a, a group of employees sitting

down just kind of like, kind of like shock, like, Oh no, what

what's that look like next? What's that look like for the

Sheriff's Office? What's that look like for the

community? And so we all started pointing

fingers like, are you going to run?

Are you going to do it? Someone needs to step up.

So, and, and I had multiple people say you should run for

sheriff and it just wasn't in my, it wasn't in my that was

not, that was, that wasn't in my thought process at all.

And the more matter of fact, I, I, I told several people, like,

if there's somebody else that is, that is better suited that

the entire department can get behind and, and, and lead, then

I'll back that person. And you know, I kept getting no,

that that's you like we'll, we will, we will support you.

And I very plainly, I wouldn't want the job if I didn't have

the support of the people there. Because really it's hard to,

it's hard to be, it's hard to take something in a positive

direction if you're fighting all your battles behind you, right?

And so I wanted to make sure I'm sure there, there may be maybe

employees there that that might not a 100% be on board.

I don't know, I guess they haven't come up and said that to

me, but I've had a, an overwhelming majority of them

come and say, I'd absolutely work for you and will work for

you and continue to do the things that we're doing.

So I went home and again, I do, I do what I always do.

I retreated to the outdoors because that's, that's where I

like when things get really, really bad and you know, I, I

deal with it and then I'm just like, bye, Kathy.

Like. And so anyway, I was, I was

fishing and just thinking and processing through it.

And like a lot of things in my life, I'm are always analogies.

And I like the one analogy that kept popping into my head and,

and just so you know, I mean, there was a ton of prayer over

it and like, like, just to, to check, check my, my heart, like

check my motivations, check, you know, just all of those things.

And, and this is the analogy that kept popping into my head.

Like, I just feel like we're sitting on a train and the

conductor just stood up and said, I'm no longer driving.

And, you know, I looked left, I look right and everyone's kind

of looking left and looking right back at me.

And in my mind at that point, I have three options.

I can either sit down, learn how to drive, I can jump off the

train, or I can sit right where I'm at and wait for the unknown,

wait for a crash. And the only two proactive

choices I have in in that scenario is jump or to sit down

and learn how to drive. And I'm just not ready to jump

from law enforcement. You know, I just couldn't, I

just couldn't, I couldn't take that leap, you know, and I just

feel like this is, this is absolutely what I've been called

to do in in a certain capacity as far as being in law

enforcement. And, and like I said, stepping

in that, in that gap and helping that girl and so many others.

And it's just a, it's been a fulfilling and rewarding part of

my job. But I also feel like I've been,

it's not a mistake that God LED my life from fishing guide to

law enforcement. Yeah, I do feel like he's used

me in that capacity. And I don't feel like I'm being

called to be not used in that capacity.

So just sit down, learn how to drive.

And so that's what we're, that's what we're going to do.

Cool. Well, I know.

Yeah. You've had a few specialized

roles in the Police Department and the Sheriff's Department.

You've pursued a lot of additional education outside of

just the the police Academy. You have thousands of hours of

training and firearms and investigation and use of force

and teaching. I know you and I have

interacted. You listen to audio books and

read some books. You've had some mentors in your

life that have walked with you. What has been your best resource

to grow as a leader? Being around men that are

leaders, paying attention to because there's I've worked,

I've worked for bosses that are failing that role as my boss,

but they're not a leader, you know, and, and I've seen, I've

seen that in, in a couple of different areas of my life.

But I think that to me is the the biggest is, is learning and

paying attention from leaders that are that that have been an

influential in my life. They might not have had the

title, but they were definitely leaders in their area.

You know, and I'm sure there's when you're, you know, in

construction working crews, there's guys that that might not

be the foreman of that operation, but people naturally

go to them because they're approachable, because they have

the answer. Or if they don't know the

answer, they're they're their pride will allow them to say, I

don't know, let me go figure that out, right.

And so these are all natural traits to being a leader.

And when you see that and actually see it play out, and

it's not, it's not faked, it's not forged, it's, it's true

leadership. It doesn't matter what title

you're at, what title you're at, or what you're, what hat you're

wearing. I pay attention because I've

I've learned from from leaders in every arena in my life.

Yeah, it sounds like with the the support of the department

and your coworkers, it sounds like maybe you're one of those

guys now that has the experience, the leadership that

people come to. I'll tell you what, it's been a

it's that. I mean, what an honor.

I mean, you know, I mean, believe it or not, the, you

know, law enforcement community with a bunch of type A

personalities, we're not walking around just saying, man, you're

just doing such a great job. Like keep it up buddy.

Like. You don't see that in

construction very often. You know, it's just, you know,

frankly, I mean, if you like somebody, just make fun of them.

That's kind of the and I'm sure construction's the same way,

right? You're just but actually to have

when the dust all settles and actually have people that I,

that I 100% admire and respect say, hey, like I've been paying

attention. I see you and I know that you

have the abilities to do this job and I'll follow you like

what a humbling thing to and you know, it's honoring, but it's

also like you take that pretty serious.

Like I'm not going to, I'm not going to squander that and and

I'm going to try to still live up to the same standard that

they they have for me. So.

Yeah. So what advice would you have

for a young person that wants to do what you've done, that wants

to build a career in law enforcement and serve their

community in that way? Well, if you're, if that's if

you're driven to do that, don't start as a fishing guide.

I would say go, you know, to, you know, you can go to college

and get a, you know, associate's degree in criminal justice.

I think that would be a huge leg up.

I mean, some, some people will come, you know, we hire people

from the military. But truly, I think one of the

the biggest assets you can have, and I do feel like being a

fishing guide absolutely set me up to succeed is just to be able

to interact with human beings. Like be able to pay attention

and not just what they're saying, but how they're acting,

what they're, what they're doing.

And being able to read kind of between the lines on some

things. When people say, Yep,

everything's fine. And but every part of their body

language is saying things aren't right.

Like like figure out how to pry that out or not pry that out.

That's not the right terminology.

But to sit and be that person that they're, they're willing to

share those things with, whether it's sit down at 4:00 in the

morning and talk, talk to a lady that doesn't feel seen anymore

in her home to being able to sit down and talk to an 8 year old

that has gone through some, you know, some horrific physical

abuse or something and just doesn't know if if she can share

that story. Because I don't know if it's

what's going to happen if I if I speak to this.

And then you take it and you don't believe me or you take it

and you don't do your job or if you take it and things the

system fails me. I have to go back to him.

I have to go back to that area environment.

And so, yeah, I think being having phenomenal people skills

is probably the number one thing that I would say.

And however you cultivate that in your life would be my

encouragement. OK.

Well, this is my favorite question that I ask of every

guest. You've mentioned it a little

bit, but are you a person of a particular faith tradition?

And if so, how does that impact your career, your leadership for

sure. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a believer in

Jesus Christ and he absolutely saved my life.

And I, you know, speaking about in those darker moments of my

life, I was working on a ranch, but so when I was guiding

fishermen, I'd float down the river and then I'd also guide on

a, on a ranch South of Casper. And if I didn't have fishermen,

they would have God just do day ranch work.

And I got, I was working on a, a project with a gentleman and

like, things would just happen. Like in our day, we were, and

you know, whether it was the weather or whether it was people

that like failed or we forgot to get, you know, the, the parts

that were supposed to be shipped out to finish the task weren't

there, you know, just just frustrations.

And I, I just kept thinking my, I'm like it, it frustrated me.

And I was just the, the sidekick, you know, I wasn't.

And, and he just always approached everything and just

such a manner that was like, you know what?

Well, he just came to every approached every problem with

like a, a phenomenal attitude and, and, and just grace to

other people. And just, and finally, like I

was, I got kind of frustrated. I'm like, he something happened

and I was like, why is he not mad?

Like I'm mad that he's not mad. And so I just called him out on

it and I said, Grant, like, what is going on with you?

And like, why is this happening? Like I, I saw something in that

man that I, I didn't understand, but I thought, man, that's.

How do I imitate that? How do I, how do I get that in

my life and that and that day sitting out in Shirley Basin, WY

on a project I had the, the gospel of Jesus.

I, I knew the Bible. I I mean, I knew I could, I

could quote Scripture. I could I'd been to church, but

I had never seen that lived out, you know, in a, in a person.

So tangibly close to me and see what, what actual grace really

looked like when, when you know someone is shining that light in

in their lives and, and I wanted it.

And so, you know, we, we, we just started that started a long

summer conversations about that. And I just started just digging

into it, trying to figure out like who is who is this Jesus

guy? And, and like, but in the back

of my mind, that's when I said earlier that I wouldn't change

anything in my life. You know, even the like my knee

injury and all those things like pre that prior to that, like my

mind was like, I'm, I'm not the baddest guy and I'm not the

worst guy in the world. Like I'm I, I make, you know,

good decisions. I'm get decent grades.

I, I don't do terrible things. I've never killed anybody.

Like, you know, I'm thinking to myself like, Hey, you know, I'm,

I'm, I'm winning And, and my standard was always like, again,

you can if you, if you, if you feel like you're AC average or

below and in a certain area of your life, it's really easy to

look at the people that are, you know, getting FS in that, in

that area, right? You don't look at the people

that are have that have B plus averages, right.

So it's always easier to just to look and and compare yourself

how you want to sell it to yourself.

And really in that, that moment, I in that season of my life, I

just really started questioning, like, man, if, if this God

thing's real and like I'm, I'm, it's not looking well for me,

like I am AI have been a liar. I have been a thief.

I have coveted other people's stuff.

Like, I mean, you know, you start going through all of the

going through the check boxes, I'm like, it ain't looking good

for you, Adrian. And, and I tell you that's,

that's the, that's the, that's the profound mystery and the

amazing beauty of of Christ is when you feel what love really

feels like and when that grace is poured on you.

And so, yeah, that is definitely been a defining thing in my

life. And I do try to filter things in

my life through that lens first. And I there, there's been times

and I've, I've worked with people that you know, that are

openly not Christian and there's, I've walked away from

some calls and I'm just like, I don't, I couldn't walk away from

this. I couldn't, I couldn't do the

job without having that faith that knowing that there that

there is a creator, that and all things will work, glorify him

and, and through him. So in my mind, I there, there's

things that I've seen and done that I just, and been a part of

that as a, as a man, as a, as a cop, as a dad, as a, that you're

just like, there's no, there's no possible way that good can

come of this. It's just evil.

And but just knowing that you know that, that he is ultimately

sovereign over all of it. And you submit your life to

Christ and, and trust and, and put your faith and put your

trust in that. And not just not just by the

words, but truly open handedly put your trust in that.

He, he loved that little girl hugging my leg more than I

could. He loves that mom that lost

their son to addiction more than I could.

And I just feel like that that's the filter that that everything

has to go through. It's like, I don't understand

it. I don't know why, but that's why

you're gone and I'm not. And like my job is to have faith

and trust in you. And I'm not saying I succeed

every day. I'm human.

I, I still sometimes see a problem and just want to

automatically like, how can I strategize or how can I do this

to make it benefit what I think the outcome needs to be.

And well, you know, as soon as you, there's times where no

matter how hard you're trying to, to do something, if it's

not, if it's not in the cards, if it's not, if it's not God's

timing or his will isn't behind it, it's not happening, right?

And so, and there's a lesson to be learned from that too.

And so great. Well, that seems like a a great

place to kind of wrap things up before we go.

Is there anything you'd like to stay to the audience or to

future constituents? Not really.

I just thank you, Eric, for giving me the opportunity to, to

come in and speak with you. Like it's been, it's been

enjoyable to kind of walk through, you know, just you get

your day-to-day life. You don't, you don't really go

back and try to extract things out of your past, you know, that

you're thinking about. So it's been, it's been awesome

experience for me just to talk about it and.

Great. Well, thank you for taking the

time. I know, yeah, you're in a busy

season of life with work and family and and now a campaign.

So I really appreciate you taking the time to Share your

story with us and learn a little bit more about law enforcement.

And thank you guys for joining us here on From the Ground Up

show. Again, help me out.

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