Katherine Flechaus – What’s Really Holding You Back Isn’t Skill- It’s Belief– You Can Fix It!

I think the biggest distinction is that these are perceived as

personalities, but their behaviors.

And so these things form the way we think about the world.

And these behaviors we see that we call people pleasing and

codependency and perfectionism. They're there for a reason.

They, they, they worked for a while and then they stopped

working and they start actually being a problem, right?

Hey there and welcome to From the Ground Up Show, the show

where we encourage and inspire the next generation of free

thinking leaders by telling the stories of those that have been

there, done that and are still getting it done, building a life

that they love with their hearts, their hands and their

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algorithms. So today I am joined by

Katherine Fleckis. I think I got that right.

She is another expert, not in a specific blue collar or non

traditional field, but someone who can help those of us that

are. Catherine spent 30 years working

in the world of clinical mental health and focusing on

behavioral change. Over that career, she noticed a

pattern where high achieving people found themselves blocked

not by ability or talent, but a core belief.

This insight has become Aligned Core Life Coaching and the

Safeguard Profile, a framework that identifies the six

protective patterns most likely to limit high achieving people

in their career. Leadership relationships.

Catherine is a licensed clinical social worker and life and

leadership coach whose work goes deeper than mindset shifts or

confidence tactics. She works at the level of belief

itself, which is why the change her clients make tends to

actually hold. So, Catherine, thank you for

joining us. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I'm excited to be here. We will dive right in.

We like to start every show just getting to know you a little bit

and and learn a bit little bit more about your background.

So do you mind telling us a little bit about your childhood

and what life was like growing up and how that led you to the

career that you've had? Sure.

Well I came from a small farming community outside of Syracuse,

NY. My family was not farmers.

My father was a civil engineer, my mother was a nurse.

So pretty traditional roles, but grew up in a farming community.

Small town values. And so my life was really formed

around that idea of hard work. My father, when he wasn't

working, was building. He built our house.

He's a Carpenter and raising six kids.

I was one of six or three, number three of six.

There were always chores. We we had this huge garden that

was somewhat considered a small farm.

And everyone had their expectations of what they were

supposed to do. And, you know, we canned our

food and froze our food and, and all that stuff.

So I grew up with those really kind of traditional values.

And I actually started my college career as a photographer

because, you know, I was the best photographer in that little

tiny community, which didn't say much, went off to college and,

you know, was suddenly a very small fish in a very big pond.

So what seemed to make sense of what was available to me at that

school was social work. I was a natural people pleaser.

I was a natural, you know, mentor and, you know, keeping

everything going right with, with six people in the house, 6

kids in the house, you know, you learn to live in chaos, you

learn to deal with crisis. My father was also volunteer

fireman for over 40 years, became a paramedic.

So, you know, healthcare was always something in our in our

family. So through social work, I went

into medical, social work, worked in a small hospital

discharge planning, which is helping people, you know, mostly

elderly who are ready to go home.

But you know, what do they need? Do they need to walk or do they

need cane? Do you know all that stuff they

need? Do they need nurse to come in

and visit? And what I saw through that was

seeing the the end of more of the end of the lifespan.

And so could I, you know, have a better intervention if I could

intervene and work with people earlier before they had these

medical crisis, before they had these medical complications.

And so I went in, I went back at my master's in social work, in

counseling and family and children and families.

So then I started working at the community mental health level

again in a small community because I raised my kids in a

small community outside of Rochester, working with people

who came from all walks of life there.

You know, there were farmers, they were teachers, they were

executives, they were people all over.

A lot of a lot of tragedy, a lot of kids with abuse issues.

So the work was hard, but it was it was meaningful.

Moved my way into leadership through a small again, love

working with small organizations.

So a local, it was an it was an unsecure detention facility for

teenage kids, but it was this beautiful open campus with these

beautiful brick buildings that had been built probably back in

the 30s. So I was I was coming into this

very old program seeked in tradition of taking care of kids

when the county was looking to really shake things up and and

make things different. So it was really fascinating to

work with people who had been doing this work for years and

didn't see the need to do it any differently, right?

Like same old way we've always done it this way.

So that was, that was very challenging and very exciting to

help build that program and to bring some new to figure out

that balance of where do you honor the tradition and where do

you bring in the new. And that was with childcare

staff. There was a fully running school

on the program. So you're, you know, working

with teachers, you were coordinating with the guys and

buildings and grounds because boy, you better be friends with

them if you needed things to get done.

So it was nice multidisciplinary work.

And then like what happens with county funding priority shifted.

I don't know if you're familiar with Rochester is a big Eastman

Kodak company. So manufacturing Eastman Kodak

makes film. You know, they made the film,

they make movie film. They gave up the digital camera

that they invented. So the economy went down.

What was Eastman Kodak property was probably a a small town in

in and of itself. A lot of manufacturing people

started losing their jobs. Eastman closed down, so there

wasn't as much revenue. So that started to affect down

strable. On Christmas Eve, I was laid

off. And so my husband and I decided

this might be a good time to reinvent ourselves.

We moved to Florida to get out of the Western New York cold,

and I landed in dialysis social work, surely unplanned, but I

was running out of unemployment. I needed to take a job.

And they told me that this is the kind of work where you're

going to be here for six months and you're going to love it and

stay or you're going to leave. And it took me 12 years to

leave. So love the work, love the

people. If you want to meet some really

hard working, devoted, amazing people who have incredible

resilience, dialysis patients are that they, they go for this

medical treatment three times a day, three times a week, every

week. But what happened there was the

small program that I was helping to grow because again, love my

small, you know, intimate programs got bought out by one

of the big guys and that was a big corporate structure.

So that's when I decided to maybe get back to my roots of,

of counselling and meeting, you know, not just healthcare, but

but everybody. And so I opened my own private

practice because I was tired of, I was tired of working for other

people. I was tired of my everything

that I was building getting pulled out from under me for,

for nothing that I had done right.

So I started a private mental health business three years ago.

One of the few good things you can say that came out of COVID

is telehealth, because now you can connect with people wherever

they are. You connect with them in their

homes. They don't have to have the

struggle of finding a babysitter for the kid and and getting in

the car and driving. And, you know, you just log on

like you and I are doing right now have a session.

And as I was working with those people, mostly women, because

women are mostly the ones who seek out therapy.

Just as that, I started to notice this pattern that you

were talking about in the in the introduction that, you know,

people, they're not not reacting and having these outbursts or

having these struggles because they have a personality flaw,

right? These are reactions that were

learned from childhood. And having worked through that

whole continuum of the lifespan, you know, I started to see the

connections. You know, maybe you grew up in a

household where, you know, money was scarce.

And so you, you began to be very cautious about money and about

decisions related to money and about jobs that you took because

there had to be security. You know, where you grew up in a

house like I did, where there were so many kids, you know,

that you had to you had to be a parent earlier in life then then

you should have been, right. And so these things form the way

we think about the world and that reaction to how you deal

with that are these behaviors we see that we call people pleasing

and codependency and perfectionism.

They're there for a reason. They, they, they worked for a

while and then they stopped working and they start actually

being a problem, right? When you're, when you're

constantly doing for everyone at work, when you're the one the go

to for everybody and nobody's the go to for you, that becomes

a problem. You know, women are socialized

to minimize themselves, you know, be a nice girl, be a good

girl. Men are socialized to be the

provider, to be the strong one. Don't let your feelings show,

which is why we don't see a lot of men in therapy.

And all these things impact on us, right?

And, and it's not a judgement. It's just a reality.

And so in seeing that and in working in mental health where

they're very specific rules, right, you, you have to be

licensed in the state where you meet with people.

People have to meet a certain criteria.

So they have to have a diagnosis to be in mental health.

A lot of the people I was seeing didn't need to fit those

criterias. Those criterias are important

and they're needed in mental health work, not minimizing it

at all. And that's where I got into

coaching because coaching allows me to meet you in Wyoming when I

live in in Illinois, because there aren't there aren't those

limits. And so my work is really about

just helping people stop stigmatizing these these words,

these these ways of being. Just start having a little grace

with yourself and and appreciating where you came

from, how you got here. And then how you know that now

you can do you can choose to do things differently, The things

that that's the kind of crazy arc of my career.

Yeah, the the coping mechanisms that kept you safe or kept you

alive as a a kid become the barriers in your career and as

an adult, so. Right.

I mean, it happened to me. I was, you know, I was taught

to, you know, be nice, be kind. Don't put, don't, don't promote

yourself too much, right? And so I watched, I watched

promotions go to other people. You know, my career stagnated

for years before I realized, you know what, I can do this.

You know, I do have the skills. So I've been there, done that

myself, which is also would help me recognize these patterns.

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Well, I know you talked a little bit about the transition from

originally studying photography and and moving into social work.

Was there something that, I mean, was that really just an

opportunity or, or kind of the, the path of least resistance or

was there something that really gave you a motivation and a

passion for that field? I think it was.

I think I probably should have started in social work.

Yeah, to be honest, because that's really where my passion

lies. And working with people, OK, it

was convenient that the college I was at offered a social work

program because that is the thing that made the most sense

to me, working with people and, and the desire to work in

healthcare because again, there was so much exposure to health

and, and helping others and maybe got a little too much into

the, you know, adrenaline junkie crisis intervention stuff.

But yeah, I think it was. It was probably the path that I

was supposed to be on. Great.

That's awesome that you found that fairly early on.

And so you said you've been running your own business for

three years now. I know there's a lot more we're

going to get to and talk about, but you know, we talk a lot

about business and entrepreneurship on this show.

Can you tell us a little bit of the the story of getting that

business off the ground and maybe the the struggles or the

wins that you faced along? The way it was fairly easy to

get started in mental health because there are frameworks,

it's available to get referrals to get people to you, right?

You, you get on boards with insurance companies and they

recommend you. There's platforms like

Psychology Today where you put up your profile and people can

find you. And I was working from home, so

not a lot of overhead. But getting into the coaching

business, that's a whole different beast when it comes to

to marketing. And that is that is where I

struggle is selling myself, getting out there and saying

look at me, look at me on social media, you know, because there's

so many people on social media. So I took what I thought why I

took a business coaching course specifically for counsellors

getting into coaching, thinking I was going to learn business,

which I did. But you know, we all kind of

agreed at the end of the program that we probably learned more

about ourselves than we learned about business because it was

really challenging all those those feelings you have like

imposter syndrome. Can I really do this?

Do I really know what I'm doing? You know, are people really

going to pay me money to talk to me?

Can I really build a business? You know, the things I had to

learn about business and about marketing and about, gosh, all

the, all the technical stuff that comes with it or how to use

all this, this automated systems and was completely overwhelming.

And on top of that, in the midst of that intensive program of

only four months, I lost an aunt and an uncle.

So throw a couple funerals in there and that's really enough

to bring you to your knees. But somehow you just just keep

going. You get up and you say what can

I get done today? Yeah.

I think that's something that a lot of our listeners can

probably relate to. Many of us are.

We're in the trades and we got really good in the trade but

knew nothing about business and trying to figure it out as we

go. Right.

Because you think just knowing the stuff should be enough, but

there's that whole other world of business organization that

that's a challenge. Yeah.

So it sounds like I, I hope I'm not reading too much into this,

but you never had a, a real strong desire to be

self-employed or be an entrepreneur until quite

recently. And it was more out of the, the

frustrations of being jerked around as you had in your career

rather than a, a drive to own or run your own business.

Is that accurate? Right, Yeah.

I mean, I always thought, oh, wouldn't it be fun to run a do

you know, I always said a floral shop, You know, I always wanted

to be a florist, love flowers. But that was that was always my,

I told a supervisor once when I start talking about being a

florist, know that I'm burning out and you, you got to jump in

and save me. So no, I never really had

thought seriously about my own business because I was just, I

always saw myself as a cog in the wheel, somebody who, you

know, just helped things move along and advocated for patient

rights because that was, you know, that's so important in a

world of medicine where, you know, doctors are the

professionals, you know, they're the specialists and we forget

how to, you know, how to treat people like people.

And so I was very, you know, I was very dedicated to these

programs that I worked for because they had, they met me

where I was at with my belief system.

And then corporate takes over or, you know, funding gets lost.

And so it doesn't matter how amazing the the program's

mission is, if there's no money for it, there's no money for it.

So, you know, my career went up and then it went down, and then

it went up and then it went down.

I thought, you know, if I'm going to go up and down, I might

as well go up and down on my own.

Well, it sounds like you wrestled with and walked through

maybe many of the same struggles that you work with your clients

on through your coaching business.

Would you mind taking a couple minutes and maybe kind of using

yourself as a a case study and walking through what, what some

of those blocks or challenges were and and what kind of work

you did to push through that? Yeah, one of one of my biggest

box was, you know what, what we term is imposter syndrome,

right? Like I can't possibly know

enough to do, you know, everyone knew more.

And then actually working in the medical field where the focus

was on the doctors and the nurses, the social workers were

always, you know, down the rung. It actually unintentionally

reinforced that that belief system that you know, you really

were just a small part. You know, everyone else got what

else knew more. Everyone got the claim and the

fame and, you know, having to actually stop and listen to

people that were complimenting me and owning being able to own

that like, you know, you're really good at what you do.

You really know what you're doing.

We really enjoy working with you, those things because again,

one of six, you know, Irish Catholic, you know, make

yourself small, blend in, don't stand out.

You know, I brought all that stuff with me into my career.

And so it didn't matter externally how well I was doing

internally. I still didn't believe it.

And so it it it took. It took these hits of these big

transitions to make me look at myself and say, you know, I can

do this. You know, I can do things.

I have more skills than I give myself credit for.

And some of it was just having to understand that.

So do you understand that? So when that thought comes up,

which it does, it still does. You know, some days I look at

the computer and I'm like, what am I doing here?

I don't know what to do on social media.

I have to remind myself that that's just a thought from

before, from who I was trained to be.

I can learn all this stuff. I have a message that's worth

getting out there. And so once I can, once I

started to connect those dots, like this was the old message

running in the background. But this is, this is the

current, right? This is real.

Right now, I can be anybody I want to be.

There's nobody telling me I need to be small but myself.

And so that's the kind of stuff that I started to connect with.

OK. And working with other people,

sometimes you know you have light bulb moments with yourself

as you know you're having a conversation with someone and

you know you're helping them through a situation.

You're like, OK, let's take our own advice position.

Heal thyself. Oh man, I I have that experience

as a parent quite frequently. Yes, kids can bring it to your

knees. Oh man.

Yeah. What was the the part of

launching your business that was the scariest?

What was maybe the most intimidating?

The money, the money that had to go into the investment, into the

coaching program, the marketing, because you know, again, here

are here are old messages. You know, I grew up, you know,

my father worked, my mother stayed home.

There were six mouths to feed. So we lived on a very lean

budget. And so parting with money is

hard. Parting with a lot of money is

hard without being able to see, you know, the return on the

investment. And I think that's maybe one of

the things in hindsight that kept me from thinking about

being an entrepreneur. It's because when you worked for

someone else, you had a guaranteed paycheck back in the

day, Yousef, guaranteed healthcare.

You know, you had paid time off. You know, you had that financial

structure and safety net and I so I think that was probably the

scariest thing and still is. Interesting.

Yeah, I think that that's probably common to a lot of

people as well. It's hard to make that big of a

bet on yourself. Yes, yes, yes.

Well, you've worked quite a long career in a lot of different

facets of healthcare and mental health and just in a lot of

different corporate structures and environments.

Is there an opinion that you once held strongly that you've

changed your mind about because of one of the experiences you've

had? You know, probably the biggest

thing I, I just wrote a post about this a little while ago

was that you know, when you're young and you're naive and

you're in school and they tell you this stuff and so you leave

thinking you know everything, right?

And then you and then you meet people and you realize that if

you don't honor their story, they're not going to listen to

you. You know, you, you, you are the

expert in the subject matter, but they're the experts in

themselves. And so I think the biggest shift

that I made was from thinking that I was the expert and knew

everything and knew best to partnership.

Because also, you know, being that expert in knowing

everything, it leads you to do everything for everybody, right?

So then not only do you burn out, but you know, you take away

their power by not teaching them how to take care of themselves

or honoring how they take care of themselves.

So I think that has been my biggest shift to, to own what's

mine, which is the expertise I have and to honor every person

that I, that I talk to, that they have their own story and

that, you know, this work isn't 1 size fits all.

You can't group people. All people like, you know, all

people with depression are like this or all dialysis people are

there because they didn't take care of their health.

You know you can't do that black and white thinking.

Yeah. So I think that's been my

biggest shift from expert to partner.

There's some, there's some real wisdom there that's applicable

in a lot of industries and and probably to just almost

everyone. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. I mean, you see it with people

you work with. You see it with, you know, the

best bosses aren't the ones who are, who are telling you what

you're not doing right, you know, and telling, you know,

reinforcing how good they are. They're the ones that are

nurturing you and bringing you along.

Yeah, yeah. Awesome.

Yeah. So if you could go back to maybe

when you were first entering college, I know you've been.

That was a long time ago. You've been through a lot of ups

and downs and good experiences and poor experiences.

Would you choose the same career track again or or would you

choose to go a different route earlier?

You know, I, I would like to say that I would take a different

route that made more money, but you know what?

I don't think I would. I think that this is my calling.

I think that there are there are new opportunities for the kids

out there that are getting into the mental health psychiatry

area. There's things like, you know,

corporate, what do they call it? Like corporate management,

behavior management, like how do systems work?

Like a corporation is a system, like it's like a family's a

system and how it works. So there are some some

interesting avenues that I might have gotten into, but I think I

would have just still been drawn to this field.

OK, corporate psychology. That's the word I'm trying to

come up with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You mentioned you really like kind of small work environments,

small towns, small communities, small businesses.

You've also worked in large corporate environments that you

didn't like and and now kind of as an entrepreneur,

self-employed. Are there any lessons that you

could share of maybe who thrives best and which environment, or

pros and cons of the various environments that you've worked

in? Yeah, because people thrive in

corporate environments. For me was the smaller

environments gave me the feeling of real contribution, you know,

that I was doing something to contribute to the mission.

And in corporate organizations, I didn't have that feeling.

I felt like I was one of many. And I don't know if that's my

small town roots or not, but I think it depends on how you

interact in that environment. So if you feel like you're

contributing and contributing for someone who is, say, an

accountant in a big corporation may feel very different than

someone, you know, who's more in the, in the Human Services.

And I think if you're who have supervisors who are making you

feel like you're part of the program that that you, your work

is meaningful and that they, they don't take credit for your

work, but they pass, you know, your work along.

I think those are good corporate environments to work in, but

there's definitely toxic work environments.

And I think that maybe that's more where I landed, you know,

where everybody was struggling to to get to the next promotion,

to get to the next position. And so, you know, you weren't

really worried about the people who worked for you, You were

worried about what was next. But I think that the women I've

worked with in corporate who are really happy are the women who

are enjoying mentoring. And so they're they're mentoring

those behind them and they're being mentored by those above

them. So that they they feel like

there's a a career path. Yeah.

Yeah. And I, yeah, I, it's, it's what

what works best for everyone, as long as you know why you're

there. That's good.

What has been your best resource to grow as a person and in your

career? Do you have any resources that

you go back to again and again? Mentors.

I think that when, when I was working at that juvenile

detention facility at right towards the end, I had this

fantastic supervisor who was a great mentor and I, I've

actually checked in with her throughout the years.

I think that mentoring is so important that just to talk to

people who have been where you've been and want to see the

best in you as far as as business, you know, you can read

the books, you can learn the styles, but having someone to

actually talk you through the real stuff, know when the stuff

gets hard, I think that's been my my best leadership and I

don't yet have that from a business point of view.

You know, I have great people from a people point of view.

So that would be a fantastic find someone who understands

understands the business area of things.

I don't. Yeah, all the things that us

practitioners have to learn when we start a business.

Right, right. Exactly.

Right. Well, I know you spend a lot of

time working with and talking about patterns that high

achieving people develop to to stay safe and those patterns

eventually end up working against them.

Can you walk us through, I think you mentioned there's six

patterns that you've kind of identified.

Can you walk us through what those six are and and what they

would look like in someone's life?

Maybe how to identify if if that's something you're

struggling with? So what they, what they look

like on the outside is either overachieving, right?

So this strong desire to be the best person in the room.

And that's because you you were raised to believe that you had

to be the best, right? You have to get A's.

You have to be the best athlete. You know, you have to get the

the college scholarship, right? That kind of pressure to be

good. That's what I call, you know, a

qualifier that someone who has to continually prove themselves.

Nobody else around them anymore is asking them to prove

themselves, but they're still going from this idea, right?

I mean, if you were an athlete and you had that coach that just

constantly drove you to perfection, or that parent who

had wanted to be an athlete and go to college but that wasn't in

their cards, there's probably the most common is the harmony

keeper. That's the person who keeps

everything going smoothly, right?

I'm a harmony keeper. I knew how to manage a family of

eight, you know, keep everybody going, keep everybody happy,

know when to push, know when to pull back.

You know, that's the person who's taking on more of the

emotional load in a group. And then you have the refiner

who is someone who everything has to be perfect because

something happened in the past when things didn't go well if

you weren't perfect, you know, And it's not so much perfect

yourself as a person, but like the work that you produce has to

be perfect. This is, you know, the person

who may be rewriting an e-mail 6 times before they send it.

And then after they send it, they're worried that it's going

to be taken the wrong way, right?

Or they're the person who's missing deadlines because

they're finishing something, right?

It's not quite done right. It's not quite perfect.

And so that's what that person kind of looks like.

Those are those safeguards is those, those are the behaviors

that overdoing, that second guessing that checking for the

5th time, that's that's a safeguard pattern.

There's the. And so, sorry, I, I don't mean

to interrupt too badly here, but the, the refiner and the

overachiever seem close. But maybe you just hit that fine

distinction is the the overachiever is probably the one

who gets it done early. The refiner is the one who gets

it done at the last second 'cause they used every moment

they could to make it perfect. So OK.

And the difference being like the internal message, right,

'cause the overachiever is the one who has to keep proving that

they are the best in the room, right?

Because if they're not, they're doing something wrong, right?

Where the refiner, the perfectionist, is worried that

their work isn't good enough. And if it's not good enough, you

know, people will think they don't belong there.

So 1 is about needing to be the best and 1 is about kind of

believing that the work will prove that you're the best.

That makes sense. They're they're little nuances.

They're they're close, but just that little distinction.

Yeah, OK. Right, right.

And then we, you know, we talked about the, you know, the person

with financial, you know, struggles growing up.

I see this for some of my clients where their parents just

weren't the best with money and that impacted the family.

And so they are so over cautious about financial decisions they

make. This is the person you might

notice who can't make a decision like, oh, I'm not sure.

Let me think about this. Let me let me check this

resource, let me check this website, you know, and you're

like, just make a decision already.

Because if you make the wrong decision, it cost right, It cost

financially, it cost reputation. So those are some of the things

and that's where they come from, right?

They come from learning that mistakes have big consequences.

And the problem is a lot of these messages came when we were

so much younger that developmentally we didn't have

the autonomy or the, you know, the brain functioning to, to

look at this like we would as adults, right?

So this little thing worked, you know, you know, my dad came home

angry and tired because he worked a 12 hour shift, you

know, So I learned that if I was just really quiet and didn't say

anything to irritate him, the day went well, you know, And so

then we bring that into all of our interactions with people.

Let me, just let me be quiet. Let me, I mean not trigger

anything believing as a child that it was actually your fault

if dad got upset or if mom got upset, you know, because you

didn't have the ability to see they're just tired.

They've worked a 12 hour shift, they've got a couple hours,

they're going back to another 12 hour shift.

You know you didn't have the ability to have that compassion

because our brains just aren't wired that way at that age.

So do you have a kind of a title or a name for that, the

financially cautious person? That financially cautious person

is the qualifier, OK, Yeah. Because they're always

qualifying their decisions. They're always making sure that

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get that person to make a decision about a job change,

right? Buying a house, you know, that

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OK. So we got the the overachiever,

the harmony keeper, the refiner, the qualifier.

Is kind of like the people pleaser, but they're they're

people pleasing comes from, again, this idea that they

they're responsible for other people's behaviors.

So sort of like that, you know, dad, who you know, who is tired

and frustrated. And so they think that, you

know, it must be my fault that, that they're doing this.

It's my responsibility to keep them happy.

But they're they're all they're all very similar.

And again, like we talked about, there's nuances between each of

them that, that are slightly different.

And that's why, you know, there's six categories and, and

they overlap. The categories overlap.

Like you have one that might be a primary, but then you have

other ones that are there too. So, so some of that overlapping

is because you, you, you've had multiple experiences, you know,

and, and your beliefs are, are reinforced in different ways.

You know, like maybe you're that, that kid who felt like

they had to keep everything calm at home, right?

And then you go to school and you know, you meet the mean girl

and the Mean Girls giving you a hard time all the time, right?

So that just reinforces that I have to be nice and I have to be

quiet, right? And I have to be accommodating.

And that's how these things get reinforced over time because it

worked once and then it worked another time.

But now that you're an adult, it's not working because what

it's actually doing is creating more work, more tension, you

know, more load that you carry. Yeah.

So I think we've hit, we've hit five of them.

We got the overachiever, the harmony keeper, the refiner, the

qualifier that the people pleaser that kind of carries the

responsibility for what other people are feeling.

What would be that 6th category? The credibility keeper, that's

the person who has to, it's similar to the other ones,

right? But it's to them, it's about

reputation. Like if I'm not the best, then

people will think badly of me and then I won't be successful.

And that comes from, you know, situations where you were, you

were forced to be the best, you know, you were the one who had

to get all the A's, You were the 1.

So similar to the athlete, but you would bring shame if you

didn't get these things where like the athlete is more

internally motivated to, to be the best, be the best, be the

best. The credibility person is, it's

about the connection to reputation.

Like if I don't get A's, I'll embarrass my parents and then my

parents will be embarrassed in the community.

You know, if I act out at school and you know, my parents will be

embarrassed. You know, small town schools,

small town communities, right? Everybody knows everything about

everybody, right? And so this concept of, you

know, keeping the family reputation safe, yeah, is kind

of where where that person comes from, the credibility keeper,

because it's about the credibility of themselves.

Yeah. And and how that influences the

other people around them. Well, as as you talked about

each one of those there, there is a friend or a family member

or something that kind of immediately jumped to mind.

And those are pretty evident. I know, you know, the last few

years, it seems like everybody has some sort of a, a

personality test. The, the Enneagram, the Myers

Briggs, the various versions of the the four different

personality types. How are your 6 people types kind

of distinct or how do they relate to maybe some of those

other personality tests or personality categories?

Because I think the biggest distinction is that these are

perceived as personalities, but they're behaviors.

And So what the importance for me is, is to connect it to a

behavior because a behavior isn't a flaw, right?

When you take a personality test, you know, it's like good

or bad, right? Like I'm a good person or a bad

person. That Enneagram is, people love

it. I find it hard to break down.

There's so many, there's so many moving parts to that.

But the the biggest thing is that these are behaviors.

These aren't personality flaws. These aren't personality traits.

These are adaptive strategies and you just haven't realized

that you don't need them anymore.

That I'm in a new environment, you know, like for myself, as I

was, as I was going through my career, I didn't need to keep

people pleasing because all that did was hold me back, right?

But when you use the term people pleaser, that puts an identity

on you, that then it is a lot to carry where if you look strictly

at the behavior that's out here, that's, that's an extension of

us, that's a decision that we make, something that we do and

it can be undone. We can choose to do things

differently. And so that's really what I want

people to understand is that these aren't, these aren't

flaws, these aren't personality traits.

These are just adaptive behaviors that happened along

the way. OK.

So it brings a lot more empowerment to be able to face

them or do something about it, right?

It's not just who you are the way you are, but it's a behavior

that you can be in control of. Right, OK, right.

And that's why why my work in coaching is a little different

is because a lot of people, you know, there's so many good self

help books out there, but there's so many self help books

out there. You know that do this, do that,

right? Look in the mirror and say some

mantras about yourself. You know, I mean, I tried that,

but until I connected back to why I didn't, why I believed

those things about myself, that mantra was just, you know, icing

on the cake. It didn't, it didn't do anything

right. It didn't change anything once I

could connect back. This is why, you know, and I was

told to be a good girl and be quiet and, you know, be soft

spoken. Then I can say, OK, so now when

I'm feeling like, should I speak up or shouldn't I speak up, you

know, in a meeting I can connect with that and be like, OK, that

was then I get why I'm why I'm reacting that way.

But this is a whole different situation.

So then the strategies become helpful, you know, talk yourself

into what I tell a lot of people.

The best thing to do is like to remember the exception to the

rule, like that time that, you know, you nailed it in a meeting

or a presentation or a sales call or something, and just

really relive that because the brain remembers that.

And so that starts all these neural pathways that we have

running around in our brains thinking differently.

And it, it's like, like remembering it is like being

there again. And then the self-confidence

comes back. You're like, oh, I did that.

That wasn't, I'm going to tell myself that I'm going to be

great in this meeting, right? That's a mantra, right?

I'm going to do, well, this is, oh, I already did it.

I already have the skills in me to do it.

And that's so much more empowering.

Yeah, that's good. That's a good turn right there.

So, yeah, I know you mentioned a lot of these are behaviors that

were learned in childhood. They were effective coping

mechanisms in our or families or school environment as kids that

we've just latched onto and won't let go of.

As a parent, if I see one of these patterns developing in one

of my kids, is there something that I can do to try to head

that off or give them some resources to help before it

follows them into their career? Sure.

The biggest thing is to talk about it, talk about what you're

seeing. So if you have a child that's

coming home saying, well, I'm dumb, I'm not smart, I don't,

you know, I don't know this or, you know, they're they're in a

sports team where, you know, they're feeling like they're not

good enough, you know, talk to them about it.

What's going on? Why do you think that way?

Because again, you want to connect the thought, what, what

thought did they pick up along the way?

You know, is it not the right thing for them to be doing?

You know, maybe they're they're in football because that's what

everyone's supposed to do. But they hate football, you

know, but they're trying to fit in.

So all it's really doing is reinforcing that that's not the

right choice for them. And then it's making them feel

bad about themselves. You know, kids in, in school,

if, if you feel like they're starting to take on the

personality of some of their friends, right?

Because developmentally that's what kids are supposed to do in,

in adolescence, right? They're supposed to learn more

into their friends to, to begin to get a, an idea of

independence. But you can lean into the wrong

friends. Yeah.

Right. So talking to them about what's

going on, Oh, your friend said this.

Why does your friend think that? Why do you believe that?

You know, just having real, honest conversations gives them

another way to think about something.

Yeah, OK. And that's really, that's

bringing light to it, right, Without shame.

And this is what I tell my clients all the time, you know,

we're not going in the back in the past to find blame or shame.

We're just, we're just observers.

We're just looking, right? And that's what you want to do

with your kids. You know, there's no shame about

how you're feeling, but why are you feeling that way?

And then what can we do together?

Or what do you need to do yourself about it?

Yeah, OK. That's good stuff.

As a parent with young kids, I especially appreciate that.

Right, because kids are so influenced by their peers, you

know, you put them on a bus, they come back hours later.

You have no idea what's happened to them, right?

You assume they're at school learning.

But it's more than book learning that happens in school, as we

all know who have survived school, you know, So asking

questions when they have, you know, when they're when they're

standing strong about a certain opinion, why, you know, where

does that come from? You know, is it, is it because

your friends say you have to or is it because you really believe

it? If you really believe it, why do

you believe it? And so is it a positive core

belief or is it a limiting core belief?

Because there's both. I know you mentioned it earlier,

especially a lot of our audience, men in particular,

that they're not real big on therapy, they're not real big on

talking about themselves or their problems, and even a lot

of them kind of push back on coaching.

What do you have to say to somebody that that struggles

with, you know, asking for help, somebody that struggles with

looking towards coaching to grow?

Always like to start off asking people what their experiences

were and what, what stereotypes they bring to it, right?

Because if, if you've had a bad experience with a therapist or a

coach, I mean, let's face it, like everybody, you know,

there's a bad mechanic, there's a bad therapist, right?

Or there's not the right connect for you.

So I like to understand what their history was around that.

And a lot for a lot of people, it's, you know, it's cultural.

We don't take our problems outside of the family, right?

Everything stays in the family. And then to really help them

understand that this is just a conversation, right?

That coaching therapy, it's about a conversation.

It's not about, like I said before, it's not about me being

the expert and telling you what you, you're doing wrong, right?

Because we, we learn to cope with life.

Sometimes we do it well, sometimes we don't do it so

well, right? Anger is anger.

You can be angry about something.

It's how you express that anger that either get you in trouble

or doesn't, right. So let's talk about how, how you

express yourself and, and is that working for you?

So really try to take the pathology out of it, right?

That it This isn't about finding what's wrong with you.

It's about finding your skills, finding your strengths, and then

figuring out how to connect those with the the changes that

you want to make. OK, that's good.

I know in our in our world today, it seems like probably

because you mentioned some of the benefits of kind of doing

coaching rather than therapy, probably because of those same,

you know, benefits that were there for you starting your

business. There's a lot of people that

don't have the qualifications, don't have a background, don't

have a a career as a therapist as you do, or or don't have the

business experience that are putting themselves out there as

coaches. And I'm sure we've all been

contacted by or gotten the sales pitch from the coaches that

really didn't know anything. What advice would you have for

somebody trying to select, you know, a qualified coach or a

worthwhile coach versus somebody that's going to waste their time

and waste their money? Yeah, it's actually something we

talked about. It's called a trust recession

because there's some, there's so many people out there selling

things that they don't know anything about.

And so everybody's weary, you know, So you want to, you want

to know that the person that you're talking to has some

experience in the issue that you want to work on, right.

So, you know, if you want to, if you want to grow your business,

you want to talk to someone who's, who's grown businesses,

who knows the insurance and outs of business, right?

I wouldn't be the right person to help you grow your business.

And like I said, I'm still learning that stuff, But I would

be the right person to help you get past your limiting beliefs

about why you think you can't run a successful business.

So knowing which one you want and, and what is the experience

there? There are some great coaching

programs out there. So, you know, have, if the

person doesn't have a mental health background, do they, do

they have a certification from a legitimate coaching

organization? Because they're legitimate

coaching organizations, you know, or did someone just put up

a shingle because, hey, you know, I'm, I'm good at my job.

So I can be good at, at talking to other people.

And so once, you know, like what the qualifications are, what the

person can bring to the table, it's, is it a good fit as you're

talking to them, you know, never buy before you, you have a

conversation, right? And, and that was a problem in,

in the mental health world is you were assigned a therapist.

And if you didn't, if you didn't connect with that person, you

were considered a problematic patient.

What if that person just wasn't a good fit for you?

You know, not everybody's a good fit for me.

And so to be able to have that ability to select, talk to

people, talk to a couple of different people, see what their

approach is, see if if you feel like you connect with them or if

you don't. If you don't connect, that's

again, not a failing of you or necessarily a failing of the

coach or the therapist. It's just not the right person

for you. Gotcha.

Right. Because we, you know, can I just

feel, you know, you can be in love with somebody, but it

doesn't mean that they're your person or that person could be a

really nice person, but they're not your person, you know?

And that's the kind of thing you want with a coach.

It has to be your person. It has to be a person you can

connect with. OK.

And so for the the person out there that, you know, I think at

the beginning of that you really highlighted, does that coach

have to offer what you're looking for?

If there's somebody who's maybe bumping up against one of these

belief barriers that, that you deal with and they they can't

identify that they know there's something holding them back, but

they're they're just looking to move forward.

What advice would you have for that person to kind of dial this

in or or get hooked up with the right coach or figure out what

kind of resource they need? I would say if if you're

interested in coaching, then like I said before, it's it's a

little bit harder to find coaches because there's not like

a national directory. There's, there's not these

directories, but you know, going on Facebook, going on LinkedIn,

going, you know, and searching for people because then you can

see them in action before you even pick up the phone to call,

right? You can, you can see what

they're writing. You can see what they're talking

about. And then if you're not really

ready yet, the best thing to do is to ask yourself some

questions. Like take the time to pause and

ask myself, why am I feeling this way?

Like if the feeling is I don't have enough experience to start

my own business, let's say, because we're talking about

entrepreneurs, make yourself a list.

Is that what's true about that? What's not true about that?

Right? To see if and then and then test

the things that you think are true.

Is it true? Like, OK, I don't have enough

experience in business. Can you get that business

experience somewhere, you know, can can you take a class?

Can you connect with somebody, you know, in the public and then

challenge the ones that aren't really true, Right.

Oh, that's not really true. That's that's one of those

limiting beliefs, you know, So then you start your brain

thinking that way, like always challenging the thought.

What is it true? Or is it not true?

Have I always believed it? But is it true?

That's the kind of self work you can do.

Awesome. Well, I know you said that these

patterns show up throughout income levels and background.

What does this look like for someone who has built some

success just from hard work and and gotten it out?

It looks like. Why do you feel like you're

still gutting it out, right? Have you been able to enjoy your

success, right? Or do you still think you know?

What's the next thing you're afraid is going to happen,

right? Like at any time this is going

to be taken away from me or you know, I really don't know

enough. You know what, what makes you

feel because sometimes you're just cutting it out because you

have to, right? It takes time, right?

And building a business takes time.

So are you giving yourself enough time or are you, are you

coming from this fundamental belief that it can't happen?

It can't happen for me, it happens for other people, you

know, that's kind of another belief.

So ask yourself why, why are you still gutting it out at this

point? And that's going to help you

separate between the reality. OK, it's only been a couple

months. You know, you're not possibly

going to have enough business yet.

Or is it because I just really, I I wake up in them all night

anxious because, you know, I don't know, something I missed

something I should have done something, you know, listen for

the should've's. You know, I should have done

this, I should have done that, I should have said this.

Those should have kind of start to indicate a belief.

Well, yeah, if you don't mind, maybe we take a couple minutes

as as you're talking here, I'm kind of walking through some of

my own personal experiences. Let's do it.

I definitely fall into that overachiever category.

Just feel like I always have something to prove or or have to

keep proving my worth. I have a hard time just being

and being accepted as I am. And looking back over my career,

running the business I just sold, yeah, I, I definitely fell

into that, you know, just working hard and had to keep

working hard. And I think the fear was hard

work and getting it out in the beginning when I had to was what

got me to where I was and that if I ever stopped that level of

hard work, it would all go away. So what someone with those

tendencies, someone kind of sitting in in that position I

was in. What advice would you have or or

what would the coaching process look like?

Well, we would start by trying to to understand like, why do

you feel like you have to be the best?

You know, where did that come from for you?

How how far back in your life can you remember feeling that

way? You know, because once you you

can connect to that, then that starts to that starts to inform

all these other decisions you've made because that's what you

believe. So, you know, if if failure

meant that it would, you know that people would say, see, I

told you. So you weren't good enough to do

that, right? Then this fear of being found

out, right, that you really aren't good enough lingers.

And so you put all this energy into making sure that you are

good enough and that this is successful because you're going

to prove that person or those people wrong, right?

But the success may have nothing to do with you, right?

If the market crashes, that's not about your, you know, you're

not being good enough. So you have to be able to

separate that, you know, what is, what is my ability to run a

business and what are the factors that I can't control

for? Right.

Yeah. And then you start to understand

that, OK, this is about, you know, I feel like I have to

prove something. Do I now I'm an adult, you know,

do I have to prove to that, you know, bully back in high school

or that coach who said I wasn't good enough or that teacher who

said I would never make anything of myself, you know, do I really

have to prove to them? Or do I know that I did my best

because family is a part of life, right?

Did I learn from it? Did I grow from it?

You know, And so understanding those things, understanding

where that's coming from helps you to let it go.

So, OK, maybe you know, what if my business hadn't been

successful, right? Was it truly because of anything

I did? Or, you know, was it the market?

Was it the timing? You know, if you were, you know,

a realtor in the during the crash, right?

I know people who lost, you know, lost everything and it

wasn't anything to do with them. The market fell out of the

economy, right? And and then the other thing

that I see for people like you is you never take the time to

enjoy your success because you're so worried about keeping

it going, right? So it's important to stop.

And again, these are messages we're given.

Don't promote yourself, you know, don't, don't be that

person who's always talking about themselves, right?

But take time to enjoy your success, even if you do it

quietly, you know, with just you, you know, wow, I did this.

Look at where my business is, you know, and you made a

business big enough that you could sell it and somebody else

wanted to buy it. You know, I did that and I

should take some time to revel in that because that's not

conceit. That's just appreciating that,

all that energy you put into that.

But we'd look at it sometimes from societies being, you know,

conceited, you know, being boastful.

That's just honesty. That is just, I did this, you

know, I'm not throwing it in somebody else's face.

That's boastful, right? But look at me.

Look what I did. Go me.

We're not good at that. Yeah, and we need to be.

I hear a lot of the, the stories when we dive into kind of the

mental health world and even some of the things you alluded

to, it seems like there's a preponderance of them a a

majority of them that tend to come from the parents or family,

at least just for my personal experience.

When I look back, my parents were just wonderful.

I, I think a lot of the baggage I carry did not come from my, my

parents or my family. They were very encouraging, but

as a young person, I fit in better with the adults and, and

maybe got some recognition or praise from the adults in my

life and had a hard harder time connecting with my peers.

And so I think that's where a lot of the overachieving part

came from, was trying to prove to my peers the same thing that

was being recognized by the adults in my life.

Is that something that's common or does that play a role?

Is it more common for those behaviors to be built at home

and in the home environment, or is is that peer environment as

significant? I think the peer environment, I

think, you know, they kind of, you know, you know, you can have

a good home environment. And if you have difficult peers

or you have difficulty connecting with peers, you know,

they because they carry so much weight in how we think about

ourselves, what we believe about ourselves that that that's such

a powerful time. And there's this social

expectation, right? You're in school, you're

supposed to be getting along with everyone.

You're supposed to have a friend group.

You know, you're supposed to be able to connect.

But you know, you grow up in a small community.

Maybe you haven't found your tribe yet, right?

Because you know, you're there because your parents are there.

But maybe you, you know, you're really interested in computers

and everyone else wants to learn how to work on their car.

You know, you know, you're a guy who wants to be an artist, but

you're supposed to be on the football team.

You know, that's where pure influence can be so powerful.

OK. So I think it, it doesn't always

come from the home. It, it comes from so many

different areas. And again, if your parents never

didn't know because you didn't talk to them about it, how could

they help guide you through those those questions you had?

Yeah, because God forbid we talked to our parents when we're

teenagers. They don't know anything.

I I appreciate that because that was something that struggled or

I struggled with a little bit diving into some of my own

proclivities and just personality was everybody I

talked to, they could trace kind of their faults or their

personality back to their home. And that never made sense to me.

The things I struggled with were not things that I learned at

home. It was more right, you know, the

friend group or the peers, so. Right, right, right.

They're very powerful. Yeah.

So I know you talked about, you know, one of your proclivities

or, or something you tend towards is to be the person that

pleases everybody, holds everything together, just kind

of takes the weight of all of it on your shoulders.

What is the cost of a life lived that way?

What is the result if we don't address that and deal with it?

Burnout, depression, lack of satisfaction in life, this, this

sort of resentment that, you know, I never get to do anything

for me, nothing's ever about me. And then you start to resent the

people around you who act that way because I want to say you

allowed them to act that way because, you know, that sounds

judgmental, But because this is the way you operated, right?

People began to see you that way.

She's the person I can go to. She's the go to.

You know, if I go to her and ask her, she'll fix it.

She'll make it all better because you do it.

So you're reinforcing this is the way people see you.

And so it's it, you know, for me, I burned out of jobs that I

mean, I just kept doing because you couldn't and not do it.

But I gave so much and I lost, you know, perspective of, you

know, where does work end and family start?

And, and I see this a lot with people building businesses,

moving up in their careers, you know, so you got to be able to

keep that balance because once you lose the balance, you know,

you can lose relationships, you know, you can lose yourself.

There's a very high cost to it and it it happens so gradually.

You know that old adage about the frog that, you know, you

slowly warm the water up and it'll boil, right?

Yeah, That's what this is like. It's like a slowly boiling until

you know your frog soup. Yeah.

Well, it sounds like a a big piece for almost all of the the

six categories here is really coming to grips with what you

can and can't control and not overreaching your sphere of

control. Do you have any tips for kind of

identifying the things that we try to carry that are outside of

our control or ignoring the things that are within our

control that we should be leveraging?

Yeah, you know, it's so simple, but ask yourself why?

Like why do I feel like this is my responsibility?

Why do I feel like this is mine to fix, right?

Because sometimes it is yours to fix, right?

So you want to you always want to separate out right?

Oh, this really isn't, you know, take, you know, parenting, for

example. You know, we want to fix

everything. We want our kids to have a

perfect life and and and not have any harm come their way.

But when they're coming to you with a problem and your instinct

is to fix it, ask yourself, do I need to, you know, what am I

taking away from him or her by fixing it for them, right?

If someone asks you to do something, is it, is it mine to

like, do I have to do it? We see this a lot.

This is where it gets complicated, the sandwich

generation, right? Where we're taking care of our

parents, right? And they need something.

Where do you draw the line between what do I do and what

don't I do? That's a different situation,

right? Because your parents need you.

They need you to do something. You know, they need you to take

him to the doctor or something. But if a friend is coming to you

to ask you to move them, you know, for like the eighth time

in their in their life and you're busy that weekend, is it

really my responsibility? You know, who else can help, who

else can fix that situation? So understanding the difference

between is this really my responsibility?

And if it is, how much responsibility do I need to take

and how much do I need to give to the person?

Right. And Oh no, this really isn't

mine. You know, this is going to make

me feel better to do this thing because it's going to make me

look better, right? But I'm going to be, I'm going

to be angry about it the whole time, right?

And I'm going to be mad. So where's the win there, right?

So asking, asking the why it's a such a simple question, but why?

Why do I think I this is mine? Why do I think this is my

responsibility? And if the answer is no, it's

not, then that's where the hard work starts of changing the way

you've always interacted with other people.

I'm sorry I can't now you, my kids got a ball game.

I've got to be at, you know, practicing.

And that's where coaching comes in, is helping you to practice,

to prepare for those situations. Gotcha.

Because it's easy to say I don't want to do that anymore.

It's hard to stop doing that anymore.

Yeah, there's a another podcaster that I listen to that

frequently says choose guilt over resentment, that it's

better to feel guilty about not doing something you feel like

you should than to do something and resent.

Doing I love that. Yeah, right, right because one

of those 2 is going to come out. Yeah, right, OK.

And, and you can learn how to deal with the guilt because

again, you connect it back to other things and you teach your

brain that I don't have to, I don't have to carry guilt.

Yeah, yeah. It's not yours to carry to begin

with most of the time. Right.

So right. Exactly.

Great. Well, I know you've worked a lot

with women, mostly because the men just don't don't always

reach out for help, but these? I'm always knocking on my door

but I do have some. Good.

These six patterns that you've identified, are there some that

are more prevalent with men or women or do they manifest

differently typically with women versus men?

You know, not so much differently.

OK. A lot of men that I work with

are people pleasers, right? They, they think that they have

to be the one to keep the peace. I think you would probably see,

you know, a bit more of the, the qualifier type person in men

because that's about, you know, men are men are socialized like

right, Like we said, to be the breadwinner, to be the achiever.

You know, a sign of my ability to care for my family is that if

my wife chooses to, she can stay home.

But now I'm the sole breadwinner.

Now I have all this pressure to bring the income in.

And where does that come from? Does that come from being told

throughout life that that's what your job is, You know, does that

come from this need to prove that you're the best of the best

and that those tend to be the way men are socialized?

OK. All right.

But you know, perfectionism comes in there too, because

again, that's a way of controlling the outcome.

If I make sure that everything is perfect, then everything will

be OK. It seems like a lot of these

just come back again and again and again to to control in one

mechanism or another. It it's probably as you know, as

kids, there's the chaos we live in the the world feels out of

control and we develop these behaviors that feel like a level

of control really when they aren't like, like you said, the

people pleasing kid trying to make dad happy when he's just in

a bad mood. It has nothing to.

Do with them right, right, right.

But it is all about a sense of control and how we control the

world and how we understand the world around us at whatever age

that was. Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah.

It's interesting. Stuff this is this is my

favorite question I ask of every guest.

Are you a person of a particular faith tradition?

And if so, how has that shaped your career and your work?

I've actually had a very sad religious experience.

The the Catholic priest that we went to forever, you know, was

on suspicious sudden leave for a long period of time.

And then we went to another church where it was a more

affluent community and we were the farm kids.

So we were never accepted. So I kind of drifted away from

the church. But while I was working at the

hospital, I met an amazing priest and nun who worked there,

two beautiful human beings, but they didn't have parishes.

And as an adult, you know, we tried some churches and the

pastor was asked to leave because he was having an affair

with a married woman in the congregation.

So we've just kind of floated away from trying to find, you

know, it was like disappointment after disappointment.

But regardless of that and having had those experiences, I

understand how important religion is to to people.

And so I always honor that in the work I do.

If that is something that's important to you, then we need

to use that as one of your strengths.

So although I may not follow any particular religion, I'm not

going to in any way undermine anybody else's religion.

If that works for you. Let's figure out how to how to

use that as a strength. It can be, you know, beautiful

community for people. It can give a lot of internal

strength. So that's kind of the way I look

at religion in this work. OK.

Is there somebody that you'd like to see on the show,

somebody you know or know of that has a a really interesting

story or an interesting business that you'd like to learn more

about? You know, I should talk to my

brother-in-law who's just selling and it's going to be

awful that I don't know the name of the company because he's his

father started the business and and he took it over.

They sell cow milking machines. Oh wow.

I don't know there's a name for it, but it's the machinery.

You know, people are not out there milking cows by hand

anymore. Yeah.

And he just got a contract on his business to hopefully Sal.

He might be very interesting person to talk to, that journey

of taking on, you know, his father's business and then his

boys just have different interests.

They're in teaching and nursing. And so there was no one to pass

the business on to. Yeah.

Well, that, that would be quite fascinating.

I I love unusual businesses that people just don't think of so.

Yeah. Yeah, if you don't mind sending

an e-mail or or making an introduction, that would be

fantastic. Well, our our last question I

asked most of our guests. I know this is a a little bit

out of your wheelhouse, but we'll let you throw in your

opinion if you have a job to do and need a cordless tool.

Do you have a preference as to which brand you use is?

It Ryobi it's the yellow one with the the power packs.

OK, there's Ryobi, and DeWalt is usually associated with yellow,

but Ryobi is another. Brand, it's Ryobi, yeah, because

we have the whole garage is full of Ryobi because it's also it's

great. It's all you just this battery

goes with that battery goes with that battery.

You can. You can use it all.

Awesome. Yeah, so.

And my father taught me how to use tools so.

Good deal. Good deal.

Yeah. Well, is there?

Is there something that we're missing here?

You know, I just think the important thing that we've

talked about is that it, it doesn't matter what kind of job

you have or, you know, where you're living, right?

We all have this calming human experience of, you know, we're

just trying to figure out how the world works.

And, you know, sometimes we get it right and sometimes we we're

a little off and we need a little readjusting.

You know, it's like a, it's like a car maintenance, right?

You can. Sometimes you need a tune up.

If some of our listeners are wanting to reach out to you or

take advantage of some of your resources and engage you as a

coach, what's going to be the best way to get in touch with

you? The best way is probably through

my website, which is aligned Core lifecoaching.com.

OK, because you can through there you can or hello at

Aligned Core life coaching is my e-mail.

You could e-mail me directly or schedule a time just to chat.

I always like to to offer, like I said, time for people to talk

first. You don't just have to sign up,

you know, let's have a conversation, let's see what's

going on and then decide if it's right for you or not.

Well, I'll make sure we include that link in the show notes.

So OK, great. If the listeners want to engage

with you, they can just click that link and and touch base

with you there. Man, it's it's been a pleasure

chatting with you. I really appreciate you taking

the time to come on the show. Yeah, yeah.

I appreciate your your honest questions.

Awesome. Well, thank you and thank you

guys for joining us again here on from the ground up show.

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