Dave Perry – Faith, Grit, and Passion: Building Perry Cattle Company

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Again, that was athlete fresh dot shop slash from the ground

up show. Hey there and welcome to From

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today. I am really excited.

I am joined in the studio by Dave Perry.

Dave is our first guest in the agricultural space.

He has spent his career and really his entire life building

and running the Perry Cattle Company in Arveda, Wyoming.

Dave is a father, a husband and a follower of Jesus.

So, Dave, thanks for joining us if you want to snag some new

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So I already get to correct you. It's in Claremont, not our

Vader. That's a big deal down there.

It is. Couple miles difference makes a

big difference. Anyway, glad to be here.

We'll see how she goes all. Right, Well, we like to start

off every show just getting to know you a little bit.

Can you tell us a little bit about your life growing up?

My dad was always in the ranchers.

He was a ranch hand and I mean it was it was tough for

monetarily. But us, I have two brothers and

we grew up and dad worked for all several different outfits

before he became a foreman. But during all them out of the

previous years, even though it was tough as boys never felt it.

We never felt like we were short on anything.

We lived off a wild game mostly. But three boys you got you got

to keep something in front of them all the time.

But anyway, so I've been exposed to ranching all my life and grew

up that way. And, and dad, when he became a,

a manager, he was actually with a man that he had trained that

had come out here from the East and, and he worked on, on dad's

place or the place dad was managing in Big Horn and with

him. And then, and then after he

decided he loved the ranching and the country so much that he

moved here from New York and, and he ended up buying a ranch

and, and he got dad to manage it down on the, on the Powder

River. So that's when we moved down

there. And I went to high school and

whatnot down there and, and kind of went from there.

And so it was, it was a, it was a good move.

We was down there and, and, and the man, it was Charlie

Whitening and he was very good at letting us expand.

He encouraged us to do what we wanted to.

And so we got to run a few cows as kids and whatnot and high

school and kind of got a little herd started and had a few

horses because we was passionate about roping and, but went to

college and I was going to inside, I was going to be a

veterinarian because, well, I didn't think there was any way I

could get in the ranching business without just being a

ranch hand or a manager like dad if you worked your way up.

But I decided, no, I didn't want to really do that that way.

But it got through the three years of pre vet and worked for

a vet for summer. And I should have did that first

because then I discovered I didn't want to be a vet.

It was not a it was you had to deal too much with people.

You had to do it with small pets and stuff.

And that's where the money was. And it was like I didn't want to

do that. So that was out.

So I went ahead and went back to college was fourth year and

thought, well, I'll get a some kind of degree.

I but it was like I went the half year and my brother came to

me Mike and said, why don't we go to Arizona and rope?

I said, that's a lot better idea.

I ain't having this college is So to my to my mother's dismay,

I went 3 1/2 years and didn't get a degree.

So but I had no idea what I would go in that would that

would help me to do it. So anyway, so we and roping was

a passion for us. I was under no illusion now

something where some way that I wanted to make a living.

I was still wanted to be in the agriculture in a ranching

business. You were a step above most

Cowboys. I mean, I, we loved roping.

I mean, it was in fact I joke when somebody said how did you

find a wife that put up with you guys going roping?

I said I took her to the worst arena in Wyoming and if she

wasn't smiling, we came back then that person wasn't for me.

That very selfish attitude on my part.

But but Carol passed the test and and we got married in 81 and

and we was on the IT was right. Actually.

He had sold the place down. Charlie had sold the place down

at the Powder River and had bought a place in Sheridan, it

outside Bighorn, like up against the mountains and, and we went

there. And so that's where Carol and I

was and, and we stayed with, stayed with Charlie and, and

like I say, he, he was very good about letting us expand and

whatnot. And he put up with some things

that I look back on it and think that, well, if one of my hard

men did that crap to me, I'd probably fire him.

But anyway, he, he was very good and very encouraging.

And we ended up increasing our cow herd up to 90.

And we, we had to pay for the, our winter feed ourselves, but

we didn't take any wages. And, but he provided the house

and utilities. So it was a, it was a way for us

to get, get some livestock paid for and kind of be ready in case

something else changed, which it did in 1980.

Well, it was it, let me back up there.

I was going to say about the other one, but in 86 it had, the

last couple of years had been pretty tight and I didn't know

what was happening with Charlie. And I mean, he had me, I'd

advance to the foreman position, but he was, I could see that he

was struggling with the place and is a very high dollar

maintenance outfit, a lot of irrigating and and when we was

doing a lot of haying. And anyway, I thought I see the

writing on the wall. And I'd, I'd went to this

seminar and gentleman by the name of Allen Savory had come

over here from South Africa and him and another gentleman by the

name of Stan Parsons had started this.

They called it HRM, which was a listing resource management.

And basically they were, it was a ranching school and, and these

these guys had developed methods and had proven that the college

AG departments that was in in at the time were wrong in the way

that they wanted to manage grass and is a whole issue of time and

whatnot. And, and they had time and time

again been able to increases substantially and sometimes up

to double, if not more of your, of your carrying capacity.

So I thought, well, if Charlie does not stay in the ranching

business, I need to know how to do this so that I can survive.

And so I, I told him, I said, I, I'd like to have, have a week

off. I'm going to go down to

Albuquerque to this school, I said, and see about it.

Well, Charlie had seen some of it too.

And he said, I'm going to go with you.

I said, OK, well, that was good because then he paid for it.

So anyway, we went down there and, and it changed both of us

immensely because it not only was it on, on Land Management,

it was also people management and the finances tying all that

together in a, in, in a big picture as as opposed to just

focusing on one area. You know, people, you get

focused on just, just just the people aspect of then you lose

track of your finances or you get focused on just the

finances. And then, then you're there by

yourself because people don't want to hang around you.

So so anyway, we come back and and it I mean he was, he was

also on fire and we sat down and he showed me his finances on the

place and he was in a wreck. It was not good.

And we and we brainstormed and actually my brother was also had

went down with us and we just loaded up a suburban.

So we was brainstormed on what to do and it was come up with

some different ideas. And he had been doing a lot of

haying and selling hay and it was a losing proposition.

I mean, machinery was super expensive.

Hay was not that high. It was wrong end of things.

And we calculated up what we could do with, with the cows.

And we ended up coming up with a plan where he was going to

divide up the irrigated meadows. He had like, I don't know, there

must have been 800 irrigated meadows there, I think, and 800

acres of irrigated meadows. And, and plus he had some dry

land and, and decided to push it to the Max because he's in such

a tough thing. And we went out and bought 800

cows and we was putting it on their.

Trouble is we had the medals in such good shape with the alfalfa

that it was hard to manage it properly.

And we thought we had some some anti bloat things and stuff, but

we didn't. And we got in a heck of a wreck

and we lost like 80 cows that summer and it was tough.

But that fall the FDIC came in and shut down the bank that had

his note. So I don't know if you're

familiar with what happens then, but most of the time they just

foreclose on you. But he had those cows and and so

he had the assets and, and we had a plan still, even though

we'd lost those cows, it was still this was hard for people

to believe that fall we made more money with even with that

massive loss, a 10% loss is unheard of unless you're

something. But we made more money for the

place than he did when he was selling hay.

And I mean, and that and that looked good to the FDIC.

And I mean, we had to go through that whole next year.

They had control of everything. I mean, you had your money

automatically went to them. So we, I got the most intense

financial planning I've ever and negotiating I've ever had in my

life. We was leasing grass from

different people and, and by then we had the metal

straightened out. So we was able to get that kind

of going too. But we leased some grass and,

and, and if we bought anything, always we had to have them write

it as a lien against us. We actually had the paper that

we had a lawyer write up for us so that when we sold any bunch

of calves or anything, these guys would come in and we and

the guy that we sold to had to write a check to every one of

them. Otherwise they could be out of

money or I don't know if they'd ever get paid because it was

operating out of Denver. I mean, it was, it was crazy.

Anyhow, that was kind of a like I say that was a year and a half

of extreme intense thing and, and and we got it.

He got it all negotiated with him finally and pulled out of

that and and we went and was had a good plan and everything was

going going pretty good and and some other things had happened

and he had some grass come up and we was working on that and

go back for us. And I was all excited and I was

looking at it and I thought I'm going to be able to expand here

pretty good. And then some big money came in

and they really wanted that place and, and Charlie thought I

can get out of this and just retire.

That's what he did in 1989. And it was, it was caused a lot

of turmoil. I had, I had the cows mostly

paid for. I had 100 head at that time.

And so we was able to survive on that.

And and then Carol was doing she had went and was teaching and

that was a very helpful thing to keep us afloat.

That second check. My uncle always said Mary and a

school teacher is a good idea. Dave is like having 100 head of

cows paid for. She didn't appreciate that at

first, but afterwards she kind of understood it.

But so anyway, we we after that point, we was I had a bunch of

small lease around Bighorn. I don't know.

It's it's it's way chopped more chopped up than it is here in

the Buffalo area. So I mean, I had and and I was

getting by doing a lot of different things and, and and

making it work. And that first year we had to

move off the place because the other guys was coming in.

Of course, before that year was out and within a one year

period, I had moved my wife and two little girls five times and

she stayed married to me anyway. But it was I mean, it was so

we'd get into a place and that was for sale and they just

wanted us. And I mean, we had a Carol had a

reputation of keeping everything up and usually she fixed it up

better than what it was when we moved in.

Well, shucks, they'd sell it in a month and then we was on our

own again. And anyway, we moved around to

there until we finally found a place over on crazy woman and

they at least that to us for six years.

So we felt like the guy we just showing it to us and he says,

well, how long are you guys thinking?

And my wife said how about 50 years, she was tired of moving,

but anyway, she she quit teaching then and because she

just wanted to be there as the kids down on a crazy woman.

And we just kept building the cows trying to it was pretty

tight. I mean, we wasn't getting that

second income in and but, but we was we was doing good.

Definitely not a super flesh by any means, but I was I was

increasing my asset in a slow manner, but we was we was

getting them paid for and and keeping ahead of the game.

And then we lost that lease and and yet it got tough and I

thought, well, I just need some place to hang out.

I got I had AI found another small lease that I could Pete or

two small lease. I could keep it on and and kind

of went in with my brother on some stuff.

He was doing very well and, and some friends, Vardnall said we

could stay in this trailer house that they had, that they're

hired man. They didn't have a hired man in

it at all. I said and, and I, I said, I'll,

I'll fix that trailer house up for you.

If I could just stay there for a while.

And they said, and if he said you can stay there, especially

if you'd help us irrigate a little bit down here.

I said no problem. So that was in the early spring

in 9095. I was working for my brother,

doing some things and must have been around the end of April, I

think it was. I was out fencing and tipped a

four Wheeler over on me and broke my back.

Yeah. And I, I spent three months in a

turtle shell in the house. Obviously I didn't do any

irrigating and, and fortunately, well, my, my nephew was living

with us. He was in high school and so he

took care of the cows and stuff. So we got through all that and

got through there and friends said, oh, forget about Lee's and

it's no big deal. You can just stay there.

They wasn't going to do anything with the trailer house anyway.

And, and I was very thankful for that.

They was helping us out like that.

And so anyway, it was a it was a kind of a tough thing.

And then and then must have been that fall, they asked Carol if

she would teach in Claremont and and she so she was teaching and

that goddess, actually it was I said that wrong.

It was actually right before we moved into the trailer house.

We were still a crazy woman and she went and was teaching and

she didn't want to teach. She was loved at being with the

girls. But so she got her resume ready

and went over there and talked to him and they looked at her

and said, well, what do you need from us crying because they just

hired her because they wanted her backs bad.

So anyhow, but that was fortunate because when I was

laid up, we really, really needed that income for certain.

Well, anyway, we got through that and it was that we was

there for like 4 or five years and I did different leases.

I, I worked for a couple of different people and they let me

run some cows and, but it was always a short term thing.

And so it was, it was pretty tight and he was pretty nervous

about it. We kept trying to figure out a

way to buy a place and we couldn't figure it get out.

And then finally in 2001, we got things together and, and made an

offer on the place that we're on.

And my folks was getting ready to retire.

They had no place to go. They had, they had a decent

retirement that they had built up with the, through the last

place that he was managed for, for, for 20 years or something.

He was there and he said, and so they had the money, but they

didn't know what they wanted to do.

And they decided, well, how about if we put a house on your

place? And I said, 'cause they, I heard

I'd been talking to him and I didn't have enough down payment.

And they came up with some money and then I had two friends that

came up with some money. One of them wanted to just, she

was retired and, and she just wanted to work on the place and

maybe eventually put a house there or something.

And and then another person owns some money.

If you get in a deal like that. And you, you I needed the

basically what I did is I had to have enough money to get the

down payment and get the note for one year.

And then the bank sees that your plan actually it was what you

said it was make your first payment, you can refinance it.

And then I could pay them people off then, which I did with two

of them, mom and dad. They, they did end up moving on

place. So we just basically give them

some land and they put a house on there and went from there.

So anyway, so we, we've been there since 2001 And, and the

whole, that whole process, my wife reminded me is that just

like with the veterinary stuff, I didn't have a passion for

that. There's no way that was going to

work. And, but I've always had a

passion for the ranching and, and you can stay in, you can get

a business going if you have the passion for it and are willing

to. I mean, we had sacrificed quite

a bit several times. Oh man, and for not a short

period of time. Well, and that was.

Married in 81 and you finally got your own place in 2000.

One, yeah, I mean, it was we, we had to work at it quite a while.

And, and, and, and I this HRM, they, they actually became an

organization and they have several teachers.

And so I would bring these teachers in and so that people

could, and they just have friends come ranchers, whoever

was interested. I usually had around 20 people

at a time. And I don't know, I did that

like 5 times, I think, or six times.

And, and I always people different times.

There's always an excuse. Well, it's, it's hard to get

into the ranch. And now they said the interest

rates are too high. It's cost 10% to go to buy land

and and or to do anything. And, and I said Carol and I in

82 got our 1st 20 cows when and we had to get a note for them

and we did at 22%. Thank you Jimmy Carter.

That was, I mean that was in the 80s and that was, that was

rough. And I mean, so when they tell me

that, well, the interest rates are too high, I can't do that.

Well, you aren't determined to do that.

I mean, just like, just like when I was talking about when we

got had to come up with the, the down payment for, for the notes

and stuff. We had to do that in order to, I

mean, we had to get creative in order to get that done.

And and all that time from the time that Carol and I was

married, we had the one thing that the HRM school really

taught me was to look outside the box.

Nothing is a bad idea till you can prove it's a bad idea.

You can't just assume just because dad didn't do it that

way or your neighbors isn't aren't doing it that way that

it's not a good idea. That's good, man.

Nothing is a good idea until you can prove it's a bad idea.

Nothing is a bad idea. Prove it's a bad idea.

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MacArthur code.com. I mean, we and unfortunately we

had a banker that kind of had watched us and everything.

She was actually in that bank that went down and then she went

to work at another bank and we stayed with her and she she knew

what we did. And another thing that we did is

the school have taught us to to make sure you had your cash

flows and everything up to date it all the time, you know, and

that's to some people that seems kind of ridiculous to even have

to say it, but it's amazing how many people have all their stuff

in a box someplace, receipts or whatever.

And so anyway, we was able to go to the bank and we'd show them

the plan. I mean, it was always, it was

always did there for quite a while.

We didn't have a lot of equity. And I mean, we come through a

couple snowstorms or a couple of bad times.

One of them was a snowstorm, and one of them was when we lost the

lease and I broke my back the same time.

And it was almost like starting over.

Yeah, I mean, it was close. I mean, I had a few cows paid

for, but it wasn't. I mean, the sales we made was to

survive, not not to expand. You get a bit different price

when you have to sell D versus holding on until the price is

right. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And, and the whole thing there, you know, thinking outside the

box, 1 of the one of the things we that we experimented with

even when we was not experimenting so much, but well,

yeah, it was it was kind of experimenting with the with the

alfalfa meadows and stuff when we was with Charlie.

I mean, even though we was in that wreck, we was able to do so

well so much of that stuff and by doing them short term grazing

and stuff and and it just changed.

And then instead of another thing that, that I did is that I

don't keep replacement heifers. If you're familiar with, you

know, you build your cow herd up by keeping your heifer calves

and then you, it takes 2 years for you get the first calf out

of them. So you got quite a little money

in them. And, and I needed to change

money faster than that. So I did not keep any

replacement heifers. And I was buying cows.

And when we got like on this place that we're on and, and I

went to the bank with my plan and I and I, I'd already showed

him that I could do it and, and I bought a lot of cows, referred

to them as last calf heifers. They got one more year maybe,

but they got a calf in their belly.

And we would run them and, and then sell the cow in the calf in

the fall. And then I would start all over

again. And you could pick them up

usually quite a little cheaper and, and a lot of times I would

buy them and they wasn't in that good of shape because like if

they come out say KC country or something, you know, it's dry

and hard and dry down there. And you'd get those cows, it was

10 years old. And they'd be fairly thin.

And I would bring them and I would have those irrigated

metals to throw them on and the cows would gain.

So they would actually become worth more and, and, and then

I'd have the calf also. So I'd have a cow that was

actually worth more than what it paid for her, as well as the

calf. Oh, wow.

So, so that was, that was what enabled us to do that.

And it was, it's always interesting.

I've never lived close to a highway like we did when we

bought this place. Everybody sees what we're doing.

So and it was not traditional and I mean we got 500 irrigated

acres down there and there's only 330 dry land.

So I mean to run cows you had to use irrigated.

And I did not want to buy a bunch of expensive equipment and

do a traditional hay base or anything.

I can buy my hay and cheaper than what I can put it up for

and make more money off of that with the cows than I ever could

by raising my own hay. Unless, unless they're just a

year like this. Last year that I mean, I had so

much grass and everything because it was such a beautiful

year. I ended up doing a little bit of

hay and I just got some old broken down equipment and I can

get by. But I'd, if I did 500 acres,

then you got to go spend a lot of money.

And I mean, it's just like any business, machineries went

through the roof. Oh man, yeah.

As you're well aware, so anyway. Well, I want to roll back in and

dive in on a few more details. I know you said you grew up for

the most part out on Powder River.

That was kind of the the the first move.

What was going to school like on Powder River in the 60s and 70s?

Did you get bussed into school or was that a small country

school? It was, it was 40 miles.

We was in high school at that time.

Well, Mike and I was. Steve was a 7th grader, the

youngest brother. It was 40 miles of growl to get

to high school and the broadest Montana.

And we rode the bus a lot and and we also drove and then after

the first year, mom and dad decided we can't torture you

guys that much and we just playing football and well.

And Steve and Mike both wrestled also.

And so they bought us a little, a little trailer and that's

three boys, which I don't think the town of Ross is very happy

with Mom and dad. Us 3 high school boys was by

then Steve was a freshman. So anyway, it was, but we so

we'd stay in there during the, during the sports season and

then drive back and forth all the time.

But I mean, it was a very isolated place.

I was, you know, I said, I mentioned that about and Roddis

is like, I don't know, there must be 500 people there maybe.

Even 30 years later, there's not much in Pradas.

Yeah, and so so anyway, it was it was I liked it, but also back

up I when we was still up, Dad was working out of it towards

Deckard. So I and I went to A1 room

schoolhouse out there. I was the only 8th grader and

then. Top of your class.

Yeah, you've made valedictorian pretty easy.

And but when I became freshman, they bussed me into Sheridan and

there's, I don't know, it was 180 kids or something in a class

when I was out of my element. The only thing that saved me is

I had relatives and some friends in there.

And so you kind of felt kind of like he was going to get by.

But I mean, I can remember the first week I was lost all the

time because it was three story big old high school block

building there. And I was I was definitely out

of out of my element, But but so going to Broaddest was actually

a good place for us. I mean, there's sixty kids in my

class and it was it was good. And and then went straight from

there to to Bozeman and it was it was not a tough move at all.

Of course, I went a lot of kids from Broaddest goes to Bozeman.

So anyway. And you said you did 3 1/2 years

of college and then didn't finish.

Do you ever regret that? I regret it for my mom, dad,

he's like, oh, whatever works. But it, it was, I don't because

I, I didn't, I didn't have a passion for anything that I was

learning there. And I and I don't know how many

times I've talked to people. I got more out of that five day

HRM class. Of course, there was some 5

there. I went to three other classes

afterwards. They would, they would break it

out and have just the financial planning like a three day class.

And so you'd go to that and then they'd break it out and you'd

have a just a three day on grass management planning.

And, and so, so I went to told us that those three schools and,

and it was actually I, I learned more in that than, than I did

for the whole 3 1/2 years. That was going to be my next

question. That sounds like you pursued,

you actually pursued a lot of education.

It just wasn't necessarily in the classroom.

You went out and found places to learn what you needed to learn.

How has that experience affected your view of education with with

your kids or your grandkids? Would you encourage them to go

towards a college education or not?

Or does it depend on what they're interested in?

Mostly that last part depends on what you're interested in.

I mean, don't go to college just to get a degree.

I mean, you can read all over the place about the kids that

got degrees and they don't can't get a job.

And it's like I I think so many kids will go to school and have

no focus on or idea what they want to do.

And which was, I mean, I kind of had an idea.

I thought I was going to be a veterinarian and as the more I

did it like I ain't this isn't. And by the time I got done was

my 8 chemistry classes. Like I know I don't like this.

So anyway, yeah, I in fact, both of my daughters got one got an

engineering degree and the other one got a master's in

psychology. And Lane is still using the

master's in psychology. And but she said I am not going

to make my kids feel like they got to go to college.

She said you look around at how many people and and she actually

got done, just got done going to Claremont and was talking to the

kids there. They asked her to come down and

and just visit. And she said if you've got a

goal and know what you want to do, then you should go to

college and pursue that goal. If you don't, how many people

you can talk to that have just been innovative.

She talked about some guy, I don't know if this was in

Sheridan, I think it was in Sheridan.

He started dog poo picking up dog in the business and the guy

is making six figures. Yeah, I mean.

They're doing Sheridan and Gillette and I, I forget the

name in the business, but I mean, it blew up pretty big it.

Did and I mean it's, it's, it's just what you do and and if

you're if you're innovative and want to be a businessman, then

do that. If you want to work for

somebody, there is a ton of money to be made and trade

schools and stuff. I mean, you look around right

now, you can talk to anybody and there's a shortage on so many

things. You can go to trade school for a

year and and you're set to go. Yeah, Yeah.

I have a pretty similar opinion as go to college if you have a

specific goal and a plan to get there, Yeah.

You know, whether it's scholarships or if you have

somebody funding that for you or, you know, a really good plan

to pay off those student loans. But to just wander into student

loan debt without a plan of where you're going and why

you're going there, it's not a good place to be.

Right. And my second brother and I both

kind of had ended up same deal. We went to school, we kind of

thought we had a plan. I mean, Mike was actually going

to go into law enforcement and just because you couldn't think

of what else to do, I think. And, but it was like, and, and

we went there for a while and it's like both of us like this

ain't what we want to do. This is not yet.

And so, so anyway, and I mean, I was good at school and stuff.

I mean, I, I, I kind of joked around.

I said I really didn't want high school then because then I got

to go to work, But it was I mean, like I say, I was

solidarian in our class and but and did good at college.

I mean, OK, I had a 3.3, but it was like just it wasn't there

wasn't anything that was clicking.

And I mean I could pass classes and do all right, but half the

time I just got test done and it was in one year and out the

other and that ain't good either.

No so so anyway. You mentioned, I think you said

for a little while one of your brothers kind of partnered with

you and and was ranching with you.

Are they involved in ranching? Did they stay in the industry?

MM was for quite a while, of course, Mike, it was so ironic.

I mean, he was he was one of these guys in school that in

college, a good friend of mine that's got his degree in

engineering to help these two guys get through basic algebra

basically. And I mean, he was so happy to

get Deacon stand terrible at math, very good at business.

And he started Mike is the one that had the Perry trailer

sales. So he was ranching.

Yes, to answer your question, he stayed in ranching and he loved

the ranching and but he loved the, the pursuit of the business

end of things more than the cow end of things.

I enjoy the cows and and that stuff as well.

I mean, I'm not attached to them because when it's profitable,

they they get to go, they taste it again, they do very well on

the plate. But anyway, to answer your

question, he, he ended up getting out of the trailer

business and, and he was in just straight ranching and that's

when he got a big lease up north behind on the Montana line and

he could take some more cows in. And that kind of saved me during

that period just before we bought the ranch and, and I was

able to, he helped me out by helping me get through that.

And, and, and then he ended up selling his place and he decided

he didn't want to fight the ranch anymore.

I ended up on the wrong side of the markets a couple of times

and kind of pulled him down pretty hard.

And but he come back from that and and he bought some houses

and was trading houses, fixing them, trading them.

And then and then he went in and his oldest son was down in

Rawlins and he was down there visit them and this motel was a

real good buy. He's every friend that he had

told him don't do it. So anyway, so Mike is in the

motel business and he's and he. I think he's done trading houses

right now, but he's trying to just get retired.

But he's when you're in motel business, you can't retire.

So anyway. But anyway.

He's a pretty diverse career track.

It was, it was for him. He, like I say, he, he loved the

business end of the ranching, but I think he was when he loved

doing other things too. I mean, he was extremely

successful in the trailer business and stuff and that man.

So that's when he decided he didn't need to be, didn't need

to have any cows. And you mentioned something

earlier that struck out or struck me.

I was curious if this was a normal arrangement and make sure

I understand it right here. When you're working for Charlie,

trying to build your own herd, you owned your own cows that you

ran on his place with his cows and in return you kind of worked

for free. Is that the arrangement you had?

So, so you got to use his land and his facilities and in return

you kind of managed his herd along with your own.

And that, and that was something that came from that, from that

school. Well, Charlie was helping us out

a little bit before the school, like I say, Carolina had 20 cows

and, and he ran them. They completely covered all the

grass and hay on them. I'd have to cover my own vaccine

just but that's something that that came out of that ranching

the HRM school is that have your hired men buy into your

operation if they are not thinking they're super important

in the operation. And I heard that gentleman that

I was telling you about talk about that same thing.

And well, and you, you had mentioned it.

Keeping hired men is a tough deal as it is.

And if they if they aren't feeling like that, this is where

they really belong, then that's impossible.

And so anyway, that's something to come out of that.

And that's when and that's when Charlie's start letting us

expand, which he was pretty cash poor, as I was saying at that

time. So that actually where we could

come up with the grass that actually helped him with his

financial part of it also. And that's something that I was

struggling with is trying to, I always give my hired men an

option. And, and when I was listening to

Reggie Brock and he was talking about, you know, trying to get

your people to understand how important they are to you.

And I've and I've struggled with that.

I think I'm doing it. And then it's like, Dang, I was

going like 2 years and then they said, Oh, this ain't for me.

I'm going. Well, well, then to be honest,

to give myself a little bit of a break is they two of them hadn't

ranched before and they want, I mean, it sounds like a really

good idea And they was actually both very good hands in the

first year. I was, I was excited for both of

them And and then the second year they started on and they

really wasn't cut out for this. And well, one of them was my

son-in-law. He'd never had anything to do

with agriculture whatsoever. And he was a but he was

extremely teachable and did really good.

And I was excited, I thought, but, but I had told him when he

asked and when him and my daughter come and asked us if

they could come, 'cause I, they knew I was needing some help.

And I said absolutely. But you have to promise me you

will leave two weeks before you'll never speak to me again.

So he did and, and I'm glad he did 'cause he's doing very, very

well. He's in the medical field and he

loves it and and so that's that was what needed to happen.

Yeah, it's it's definitely a lifestyle, not a job.

It is and, and, but I I think in to a certain extent, any

business to a certain extent will be a lifestyle.

I mean, anybody that has their own business, you, you have to

work around the everything your business and and not mess up

with your family and everything else, you know, but but my wife,

Rick Carroll, when we was talking last night, she said

they got to have the passion. I mean, and these people that

want to get into ranching. I mean, we are doing very well

from my standpoint. I mean, there's there's people,

I'm sure when I went down that list of podcasts you did that.

I am a pretty small potatoes compared to these fellers, but

it was very, you know, we had, we had a note they plan on it

being a minimum 30 years to get it paid off.

We paid it off in 21 completely. And I mean, so I mean, we have a

lot of equity. And from my standpoint that now,

I mean, to have land, of course is increased in value and a cows

have doubled in value and, and we have them all paid for now.

And it's a psych. And somebody said, well, Dave,

why don't you sell that and just retire?

And I said, and what am I going to do?

I said, I love what I do. I want to have a hired man there

so I could do less of what I do. That's my whole goal.

And I mean, it's just I couldn't, I couldn't imagine not

not doing something in the ranching business or in

agriculture and not like say I don't, I'm not interested in

expanding. You know, that Reggie, Reggie

Brock really brought that home to me that, you know, them guys

was going to expand and it was going to get bigger.

But I mean, it's going to make some more money, but their time

is going to be shot. So you make your make your value

decisions that way. And so So anyway, it's.

Sounds like a good place to be for now.

It's we're, we're, we feel very, very blessed.

I mean, the whole thing, you know, it was, that was

something, you know, back in 1990 tying up right before all

the real wreck started, I guess, or I, I had accepted Christ.

And from that point on it was like, OK, my focus is a little

bit more towards not a little bit more.

It's a lot more trying to figure out what God wanted me to do

instead of me thinking that I had it all figured out, you

know, and I mean, I, and it was, and that was fortunately I knew

the Lord when I was laying up, laid up, there was a broken back

is like, Oh my goodness. It was like, why did this happen

to me? If you didn't know him before,

you'd get to know him. Yeah, that three months.

Later, of course, you know, it was I'd seen people that had had

the similar, similar kind of injury that were in a

wheelchair. And so I was thankful for that.

You know, it was, I was, I was still mobile and that was and

that guy come, come out and I have no, no repercussions from

it at all. So that was that was definitely

a God thing in my opinion. So yeah.

So anyway, it was. I know you mentioned a few times

that you've kind of taken a a unique approach and yeah, done,

done the new thing, the creative thing, rather than the way

granddad and dad always did it. I know I've talked to some

people, especially in other industries, that have tried that

and it doesn't work out for them.

How do you weigh these new ideas or unique ideas against the way

it's always been done? How do you weed out the good

ideas from the bad? Well, it wasn't like I was the

first one to do it. So all I had to do is just

monitor the situation all the time.

I mean, like say we, we monitored them dead cows that

first year at Charlie's. It was a tough, it was a tough

year. I mean, we, it was the quality

of life sucked. It was highly stressful.

So that was grazing the alfalfa was obviously a stupid idea.

I mean, we, we couldn't, we couldn't handle the non bloat.

The the the feed we had for from non bloat was not didn't work,

didn't work enough, I should say so anyway, But we got, you know,

figuring out cash flows and stuff, if you're being honest

with yourself, and that's a critical issue anytime you're

doing cash flow. I mean, you can, you can

manipulate numbers however you want, if you're going to, if

you're going to do that. But you know, that's a, that's

a, that was the start all the time when we was looking at

doing different things, but and talking to talking to people all

the time. The guys that had been through

the school stuff when we first went down there.

I can remember sitting at A, at a little seminar and Alan was

there and, and, and he had talked about some stuff and then

they had some university guys talking and stuff.

And it was obvious they thought he was full of crap.

I mean, they, they wouldn't even listen to him because it was so.

And that was the way it was for probably, oh, at least 10 years.

And we actually, we actually, I got with several other guys.

There's like 10 of us. Then we started an organization

just in that was just out in Wyoming to promote schools and

to help ranchers and stuff. And it was very successful and

got got a lot of people introduced to the whole, to the

whole thing. And I can still remember going

to a, a thing that the bank had and they asked me if I'd come in

there and it was basically, they had some professors and some,

and some financial bankers and stuff doing a, it was a 2 day

thing right here in Buffalo. And I can remember these guys

was talking about different ways to, to make your place pay and,

and this, and this one guy was talking about trying to, trying

to get cows and, and improve your ground.

He says, and, and I said, well, if you, if a guy can do better

time management stuff and he goes, Oh, you're that guy.

So the word was out on me and I was a marked man and didn't even

know it. But the ironic thing was they

got all done with this. And the last speaker was a

university professor and, and he, he went through there and he

was talking about all the things they did on this ranch, like it

was their idea. And, and they had put fences in

and divided some and, and they rotating cows through these

pastures and and they had improved the water and so on and

so forth. And like it was their idea.

And he gets all done. And he said, and then in this

year they came to it was called wire at that time, which was

sponsored by the UW and they came to a wire class.

And I'm going these guys was working HRM the whole time.

And then but boys at the college was monitoring them and they was

taking that on as their, we were the ones that did.

And I'm going, OK, fellers, this is you guys are coyotes.

But I mean, and now and now it's it's in all the colleges, all

that stuff I'm talking about with the HRM stuff with the

grass management, they are promoting that all kinds of high

tech with the collars. I don't know if you've heard

about the. Cows you put a.

Collar on a cow and you'll have and you'll have different towers

on your pastures or in on your place.

I mean, and you can draw a line on your phone and COW will not

go past that line because it'll just gives it starts to starts

to buzz a little bit and then if they go too close to the line,

it shocks them. Yeah, I've got something like

that for my dog to me. It's the exact same thing.

So they're influenced pastures. And they are having extremely

good luck, which is that's really, really good for like

when you got elk or something. Because because I can, I can

run, I can run hot wires really cheap.

Elk can destroy mild hot wire and nothing flat.

Yeah, they, they do not get trained hot wire.

They just tear it off. But, but I mean, so that kind of

technology, you know, back to your question, I mean you those

kind of things, you can, you can if you're on the right path and

just keep trying to go with it and the numbers and the time and

all that stuff coincide properly.

I mean, it's, it's exciting to me because, you know, this is

not really a feather in my cap, but it did make me feel really

good when, when we first moved down there, of course, I brought

in 250 cows and I was grazing the meadows.

There was only 1 Meadow that had alfalfa in it.

So I hate it. There's 80 acres and the rest of

my rotated cows. So I put the hot wires up.

I don't have help fortunately. I mean I could run one hot wire

and my neighbor down the down the road right next to us, it

was watching it and everything and and like 4 years later, I'd

been there for four years or something or five and come and

told me. He says yeah, I watch.

How you doing that Dave? And I gave you 2 years before

you'd lose it all. And he said, I am really

impressed. You're probably making as much

money as anybody in the valley now.

And I thought, well, it was interesting.

Like I said, being on the highway to everybody can see

you. It caused a lot of, a lot of

gossip up and down the valley or a lot of conversation, maybe I

should say, not gossip, but anyway.

But I thought that was, I was, I was very, very pleased that he

noticed that, you know, he was, he was watching it pretty close

to see what happened. And it was so anyhow.

Yeah, when you first said something about being on the

highway, that never occurred to me because I I'd drive back and

forth and never pay attention to what was going on over there, I

guess. A rancher has a habit of looking

across the fence to see what's he doing in there.

What's that past year like, what's going on there?

So. So anyway.

Well, I know we talked about it a little bit.

There's some things that are a little bit unique to the AG

business and especially the the cattle business that make it

different from other industries. What are some of the the

difficulties you've noticed running an agricultural business

or especially a cattle business that maybe other businesses

don't have to deal with? I don't know if that's, I mean,

there's, every business has their own thing.

I, I think is the way I think you'd have to look at it.

The one thing that is different, I mean, you're dealing with,

with live animals. So you got to keep them alive.

And, and so, so I mean, that's, that's your biggest challenge

is, is keeping them alive and keeping them profitable, you

know, you know, and I, but I, I would compare that to a lot of

different businesses. I mean, it's the same.

I mean, and, and, and you're, you got to keep your equipment

going. You got to keep all that stuff

going. And to a certain extent, I mean,

it isn't like a live animal, but, but that's probably the

biggest thing. And, and you're always dealing

with, with live Organism. I mean, you're talking about

your grass. I mean, that's basically what I

do is I harvest grass. That's what that's what the cows

are for. You know that instead of running

a swath are over, I run cows over and.

The most efficient way to turn plants into meat.

There you go. That's that's my whole goal

right there. You summed it up.

That's that's it. And, and, but I'm thankful that

guys like to hay and there's a lot of people that, that are

profitable at it for whatever reason.

I'd, I'd go head to head with them anytime as far as the cash

flow about what they could make off that ground, you know, but I

know it's a cost. You know, he's paid 250,000 for

a swather nowadays. It's nuts.

But, but anyway, fortunately they are, because I buy most of

my hay, I put up very little and I basically just wait a year.

Like last year we had a super good year and these guys had

piles of hay everywhere. And I said, what do you got to

have for it? And I mean, you, you get it

sometimes for half of what it costs if you buy it that same

year and two year old, hey, cows, my cows will eat it.

They will eat it. So I mean, I can pick it up for

that. I mean, a guy can do different

things, but it's, I mean, that's the same as any businesses

you're looking at where you can save money, where you can turn,

turn something that maybe be a loss into a profit.

And and you know what, but you know, it's so easy to get

anytime you're dealing with the live stuff too, like you're

talking about, it's easy to get caught up in, in the newest and

greatest things. I mean, I don't know how many

seminars I've been to for like the vaccines, the newest

vaccines, the newest implants, so on and so forth.

And I said if I did everything you guys said, they, you know,

they tell you, well, if you do this, you'll gain X number of

pounds, so on and so forth. My Cavs would weigh 2000 lbs if

they, if they've all, if all that worked.

And obviously it won't, you know, and it's, and you can

spend a lot of money. Oh, yeah.

I mean, there's, everybody is everybody's trying to sell you

something. But back to my I think that any

businessman has to be careful because there's always somebody

wanting to, and some of it, and a lot of it is good.

You just have to determine what will work for you.

We saw that it was always the labor saving devices and oh, you

know this, this piece of equipment will save labor, save

labor, save labor. And like you say, if I bought

all of those, these roofs would put themselves on you.

Know that's exactly. You got to figure out which ones

work for you and your guys and your system.

And yeah, they're not always what they're cracked out to be.

And it. And I mean a lot, like you say,

a lot of it is good stuff. And I mean, I don't know how

many times they've tried to sell me something to feed a different

way to feed the cows. It'll save you 1015% of you,

you'll have 10 to 15% less waste on your hay when you feed it.

I said I don't have 10 or 15% to save.

I said they don't leave that much.

My ground is barrel when my cows get done.

So what are you talking about? Well, anyway, that was it.

That was interesting too, so. Well, you've had quite a career

raising cattle. Are there any specific highs or

lows that stand out of maybe the the most difficult time, the

most difficult season? Well, it was it was very it was

I I thank the Lord that my wife stuck with me during them one

years were they were they were tough after, you know, we were

so excited when when we come out of the FDIC and I thought

Charlie, OK, we are going to roll and this is going to be

good. And and then he decided I just

want out the pressure. Was he he he was tired of it,

which I totally, totally could understand.

And so anyway that those those years after that, I mean, they

was they was pretty tough there for a couple of years.

And then when we got the lease at Crazy Woman, that was

actually. Almost a relief.

We loved it down there. We loved the community, but I

mean it was I was not I was not getting ahead that much.

We was doing all right, but it was we was not so, but but it

was when we lost at least them five years, then we're probably

the toughest force of any time we was, but you know, it was it

was an interesting. It was even during then.

You know, it was definitely a time of growth was, was my, was

my, my relationship was, was my Lord, you know, and, and trying

to figure out what Jesus wanted me to do here.

It's like, OK, I'm trying to figure this out.

And I said, fine, I'll just work for the rest of my life for 5

bucks an hour. And I tipped over 4 Wheeler and

broke my back. And thank you that I can walk.

I will not complain again, which I failed at that, but it was,

but I was, it was, it was an interesting time.

And you know, and, and, and I, I, I'm sure you've probably went

through that highs and lows when we got the ranch bought and we

were so excited on the one hand. On the other hand, I was scared

because I was more debt than I'd ever had in my life.

And I mean, I, I, I probably had 50 cows paid for when we went

into that and I had to buy some more and I had to, I had the

other stuff going on. And it was in that first year.

I mean, I, I seriously, I was out haying.

We had to hay just about everything that because I had to

lease with my brother at that time.

So most of the cows was up on his place up north.

And so I, we was haying and, and I was, I was burning the candle

at both ends. I honestly was out there.

I'd I'd hate during the day and I had to irrigate and, and my

girls were to help me. They was at that time a

sophomore and 1/8, no, a freshman and a 6th grader.

And they, they was doing a lot of the irrigating and stuff that

in different places for me. And and I mean, I was, I was

working so hard and I was, I was flossing one day after I'd been

bailing most of the night and then and it and suddenly I said,

I got, I got to stop. I'm just going to have to lay my

head down. I laid my head down and went to

sleep. And when I raised up, I had no

idea where I was. I could not figure it out.

I thought, well, I'll follow this mineral and it'll come to

me. I was so rum dumb.

It was unbelievable. And I thought, OK, this is good

time. I got to pay attention better.

But what really came home to me was one day laying the youngest

1/6 grader. She had been down doing some

flood ear gating and it was we had a drought on top of

everything else that first. That's what you want, Your

first? Yeah, new place.

And it had been a drought the year before, so everything was

really tight anyway. And she, her and Aaron had been

down irrigating and she lane to come in and she had wore shorts

and AT shirt because it was so hot.

But everywhere that she slapped a deer fly, it was muds smashed

on her. You know, whether it was a face

or wherever. And she came in crying and she

goes, is it always going to be this hard?

And I'm going, holy crap, I got to slow up.

I said, OK, girls and I got everything shut down.

And we went up on the mountain for for two days just so they

could breathe. I'm going to burn them out.

And it was, and that was a lesson to me that you got you

still have to keep the main thing, the main thing.

So back to your question about being hard, it was, it was a

you're juggling what needs to be done with what has to be done

and your family has to be done. I mean, if I'd if I'd have

messed up there, that would have been a forever sorry moment for

a guy, you know? Yeah, that's good.

You're juggling what needs to be done with what has to be done.

I think determining which things fall into which category is

where a lot of us get sideways. And it's, and, and it was, we

got done that fall and made the payments, had money leftover and

it was like the bank was off our case and I was able to pay them.

Other people were refinanced and paid it off.

And then I mean, from then on it was just a matter of, of paying

attention to things. I mean, the opportunity came

must have been in a what was it 2006 when the interest rates

dropped so much? I can't remember.

Yeah, probably about that time. Anyway, and we refinanced

everything. Well, on top of my, my folks had

to up there and, and, and they had, they had borrowed the money

for their modulars that they'd moved in in the garage.

And I said, mom, let's, let's refinance this.

She says, I don't know if I want to do that.

I said, I'll help you. Let's just do that.

I mean, it'll save you. And we refinanced it so that it

would save them. I think it was like $200 a month

or something, which is a pretty good little spending thing for

him, you know. And she said, well, we can't

take it out 30 years. I ain't going to live 30 years.

I said, So what? I'm taking it over if you guys

die anyway. So, so just have this.

I mean, it was down to 4%. I said just lock it in.

Well, it's good. It's a good move.

So I mean, they had it at 7 1/2 or something at that time.

I mean, things like that, you know, you just take an

opportunity. I mean, even though things were

good right then, it could be better without without costing a

bunch of time, labor and and horrible.

Not horrible, but additional time and away from what needs to

be done. Is there a lesson that you wish

you would have learned earlier? I don't know which one I should

talk about. I mean, I mean, that's, you

know, that that whole thing about hindsight being 2020, you

know, there's, there's, there's some of them things.

It's like, I'm sure that if I'd have worked at a different, I

probably could have not had to be, well, moving my wife five

times. Nobody should have put their

wife through that in one year. So somebody's complaining.

I've had to move twice in three years and I'm going, oh whippy

dippy I hate. Moving that's like my least

favorite thing when we bought the house that we're in now I

told my wife that she could pick where she wanted to go but she

better like it cuz I'm. Gonna die.

He ain't moving again. Well, we, we got rid of a lot of

things. I my wife had these three

barrels. I don't know, there's like, I

don't know, they must have been like 30 gallon barrels or

something like that. And of her college stuff.

I'm going after the third time I'm going are you serious?

I am not going to move these anymore.

I said you are never going to use any of these books.

And well, she kept some of her math book just for case so she

could use a teaching. Well, she never used any of

them. We moved them, but it was the

rest of them. They went and told them where we

could. So anyway, it's just, you know,

I would, of course, I always wish I'd accepted Jesus a lot

earlier in my life. You know, I thought I kind of,

but it was, it was an interesting thing And we had

Aaron and she was a year old or something.

Maybe maybe she's pushing too. And I decided we need to start

going to church. My aunt and uncle went to church

and I and I really was impressed with how their family was, you

know, and stuff and, and of course there's wonderful people.

And I thought, I think we should go to church so that I said I'm

tough enough to handle hell, but I don't want my daughter growing

up that way. In my ignorance once again, had

no idea what I was saying when I said that.

And and then I found out that I needed I needed God as much as

my kitten even more than my daughters did.

So. So anyway, but that I'm thankful

that even though it was so late in my life, so to speak, it

probably would have saved me from a lot of wrecks in high

school and stuff. If in college, if I would have,

if I would have been a Christian then.

But I'm so thankful that it was then that it that it happened at

least when it did, because then I was able to be focused on my

family better. And that was, and that was the

most that was the most. And that's been the greatest

blessings is is watching them and they're walking stuff now.

I mean, it's from all the way down to my grandkids.

I mean it. It's wonderful.

Yeah, that's great. Is there an opinion that you

held strongly at one point in time that you've changed your

mind about? I'd have to think about that a

while, Erica. You know, I've changed my mind

several over the years, of course, but I don't know if

there's one that I held really strongly that I, I guess I kind

of think about my attitude towards education towards the

college guys. I was so disgusted with them.

And then first years of after we'd been to the, to the

ranching schools and whatnot and their whole attitude and I was

like, I just wrote them off and, and I, and I thought that's the

wrong way to look at that. Just just keep going on.

And when I seen them starting to to accept that and helping the

ranchers out, I mean what they was doing before was not

helping. I mean it there was more than

one guy went went totally broke following their teaching and

stuff. And that was that was a good

thing. Of course I got this is when we

was a crazy woman. Like I say, I had that whole

attitude. And then and then the

opportunity came up. They had one of their AG

teachers at Sheridan College passed away.

And my banker said, Dave, I put your name in to be a teacher to

help these guys out for a semester.

And I said, you did what I said, I don't even have a degree,

Roberta. And she says, no, she says talk

to these guys. And I said, OK, so I went and

talked to him. And so I ended up teaching AI

taught an HRM class is what I did.

I went through the book and the whole thing and and there was 20

some kids in there. And it was like, this was really

interesting and I got to talk to a couple of the other

instructors a little bit and, and I thought I saw, I suppose

that was probably the biggest changes that I, I became for

that very short time, part of the, of the education system

instead of, instead of just knocking them.

But, and it's, it's been, it was, it's been, it's been fun

watching that, that whole change.

It's been difficult for them because you think about those

guys that wrote books on some of that stuff.

I mean, they made their living doing that and suddenly you're

telling them that stuff you're teaching is crock.

And that would be hard for them to accept.

I mean, anybody to accept, say, OK, I guess I got to change my

whole deal here. This ain't fair.

So anyway, so I guess that would be, I don't know, like, say

there's other things all the time.

Anytime, anytime we're moving forward, you know, you, you

better be ready to change. It's like, just like I was

talking about that day when the girls came in and they was, they

was beat. And I thought we got to change

this. Making this pay is not the most

important thing. I mean, we can make it both

work, but we're going to have to take care of the first part

first, you know, and things like that.

I mean, people should be aware of that kind of stuff all the

time. Yeah, so.

What has been your biggest win? Well, I didn't say to my wife

I'd probably get thumped when I got home.

So but you know, it's, you know, I, I just been thankful for so

many blessings that I've had that I mean, God was protecting

me before I was serving him. I mean, I mean, just helping me

through the the years. I mean, like I said, we was, he

was very focused on team roping and stuff.

And, but, but always that my real passion was the agriculture

and the things with the cows and whatnot.

And the biggest win, the big, you know, kid, you know, you get

out of high school and you think, well, I'll be a

millionaire at the time, I'm 30. Everybody assumes you're

bulletproof and you know, and so on and so forth.

And, and when we actually, and we actually went in and made

that last payment, that was probably one of the one of the

highlights of knowing that, that God had blessed us to keep going

in the right way. And you know, and that was that

was a big deal. And, and maybe a little bit of a

pride issue there or something. The for the last 10 years or

well, probably 15, you know, when I'd go in to get refinanced

or, or get my stuff done, I would shop around at them

bankers and I'd say you got to give me your best deal here.

And I was kind of being kind of a turd about it really.

You know, it used to be I'd go into my hat in my hands, they

go, well, I can get this money so I can go one more year, you

know, and, and now it's like I'm a good customer.

You guys are going to have to give me a good deal.

And it was, and that was kind of arrogant on my part, but but it

was still. But on the other hand, I tell,

and I've had the opportunity to share those stories with

different guys that have worked for me.

And I said, you go into this banker and if you've got all

your ducks lined up so that they can see that and know that

you're serious about this, you know, and have some seriously

good numbers and not just say this is what we're going to do

and this blah, blah, blah. I said, you can, you can do

amazing things. And that's been fun doing that.

But but anyway, but yeah, probably the biggest win was

when we actually was able to say now we'll be able to just do it

as we want to. Yeah, that's a big turn, not

having the bank involved in your business.

You know, and I still, you know, we still have the bank and we

got a good relationship with them because I, I mean, the

operating loan gets pretty, pretty intense in between and

our operation again, non traditional.

I sell a lot of short term cows. I wean the calves in August,

sell them cows at the sale barn and end of August 1st to

September and and then I start buying cows, but I don't sell my

actual calves until November. So there's a period in there

suddenly I can have a lot of money out and, and, and a lot of

times I'll run out of money and I can have all I need is a short

term loan for, you know, a couple 100,000 or whatever to

cover some cows for that, for that period till we sell the

calves. And so I mean, I am involved

with the bank and I, and I appreciate having being able to

have a relationship with them. I mean, they're excited because

they know they're going to get paid back.

So but they want to keep you as a customer.

I mean, I don't know, I think the first national used to call

them or first Northern now blue ribbon customers or something.

I thought, well, I'm a long ways from that.

I used to get 10 matters but but anyway so.

Well, I know, yeah, you've been through some some ups and downs,

moving five times in one year, laid up with a a broken back.

At the same time you lose all your leases.

What is it that motivates you to keep pushing and keep going when

things get really hard? Well, you know what, I don't

eat. I've had people ask that kind of

stuff for Eric. And it's like, what else do you

do? Give up?

That ain't an option to me. I mean, that's the way Dad

raised us. I mean, you just kept going and

figured out all that didn't work.

You better figure out what does you know?

And and that's what. And, and like I say it and I

keep talking about that passion you feel for what you do, the

passion that you have, you know, now you know that it's, it's

varies a lot more. I mean, I, I still have a

passion for ranching, but I have a serious passion for my

grandkids and, you know, and watching my how my daughters

have done and, and, and I have a son-in-law.

I just just thrills me to watch him.

He tries different things and and I.

Get going from ranching to the medical field is pretty good.

Well, it's a pretty good jump. Well, he was in the medical

field already and then he's thought maybe try the ranching

and then he like don't have that passion.

But I mean, he, he's a businessman himself and, and,

and just watching him go through that and, and it's fun because I

mean, he'd been successful and sometimes, well, that didn't

work out at all. I go welcome to life.

And and you know, and it's, it's just so my point being, and you

know what, and, and, and now having when we have when we have

a relationship with Christ and you're and you're growing in

that relationship all the time with other people.

That's always an exciting thing in itself too.

I mean, you know, we in our life group, we had this elderly, we,

we referred to ourselves as a geriatric group because I'm one

of the youngest ones. Anyway, it's seeing the growth

in some of them people has been so exciting.

Anytime you get to witness that, I mean, it's easy to, it's easy

to see why our pastors have, they get such a, they'll get on

such a high when they get people coming to Christ.

I mean, it's it's, it's a wonderful feeling.

So I mean, you got, you get to have all them things.

I guess that maybe that's have to do with age.

You figure out that you don't have to be focused on just one

thing. You can have many things you can

be passionate for at the same time.

Yeah. You know.

I know you mentioned a big passion for you early on.

Was rodeoing and roping specifically.

Did you continue doing that? You still like rodeoing?

Or did that go by the wayside when you started branching more

seriously? My, when I, when we bought the

place, I was still roping, but I tell everybody, yeah, I pretty

much trade my ropes in for an irrigating shovel.

Pretty poor trade at the tie. Plus we got going, you know, I,

we still roped a little bit. I mean all the time that up up

until then, but it, it was ironic because at the same time

Mike, who's the main partner and, and well, and Steve, even

Steve had moved. He was down in Cheyenne, so he

wasn't around him very much, but Mike had moved on out of the and

was doing those other things himself.

And so both of us kind of it wasn't important anymore.

It was like it just suddenly was not the passion that we had.

Me and my brother, youngest brother went down to Wickenburg

as where old guys go in the winter time and and you just

they have ropings every single day.

Steve said, oh, you got to get a horse and come down there and

I'm going, you know, when I go down there, I have as much fun

riding a side by side as I would roping.

And it's like you just don't have that passion.

I don't have the you got to have kind of a killer instinct if

you're going to compete like that.

That's pretty much gone. I just, I just enjoy life right

now. And it's, it's not something

that that I, that I have a desire to do anymore.

OK. I mean, and, and people are just

shocked. I mean, we, we practiced four

days a week and then you rope two days a week.

I mean, I mean, you was, you was serious about it And, and if you

didn't have a rope on that weekend, you was like, oh man,

it's like the world was over. And it's like really.

So, so anyway, but it's, I don't know, that's a phase of life, I

guess, but it was kind of funny how it happened to Mike and I

both at the same time and. Moved on to the better things in

life, even if you didn't know it.

Really. Yeah.

That's a good way to put it. That's a good way to put it.

It was. And it's been, I mean, no,

looking back, it's been good. I mean, it's just, and I mean,

it's, I think that happened with a lot of people.

I mean, you, if you cling to something like that too much, I

mean what? No matter what it might be.

I mean, you're, you're you can get things out of focus, I

think. Yeah.

Yeah, you miss out on a lot. Yeah, wow, that's a good way to

put it. Well, this is my absolute

favorite question. I know you've talked about it a

fair amount already, but as a Jesus follower, how has that

shaped your business, your leadership, the the way that you

operate? Well, probably probably the

biggest impact had was my attitude towards the people I

worked with, trying to make sure that they felt part of it and

being around my neighbors, you know, instead of somebody does

you bad turn, instead of saying, well, I'm never Speaking of that

SOB again. It's like, I think we can work

this out. Well, that's more important than

just holding that bitterness forever.

So those human relationships like that I think are are the

biggest thing. And just the excitement of like

I was mentioned earlier about watching, watching my grandkids.

And of course, two of them are girls, an eighth grader and a

sophomore, which that's some scary, scary times from my

perspective anyway, anyway, but. So what?

What's next from here? You said you, you don't have any

plans to retire. You, you love what you do.

You just want to maybe slow down a little bit.

What do you have on the horizon? What are you looking forward to?

Well, like I was mentioning with my hired men that I had problems

with, I'm hoping I got past that.

I'm hoping that young man that I have right now, Cole, he already

knew he wanted to be a rancher. He doesn't have to be in the bar

all the time. That makes it a lot easier.

And, and he's and he's excited about, I mean, just been there a

year, but he's excited about increasing his herd.

And I said, I said, I'll let you, I'll let you increase up

there quite a ways. I said if the guys that I had

before had went up because I was going to let him get up to 30

cows right away if they wanted. And if they had done that and

and stayed and had those guys paid for this last year, they'd

have made 100,000. But with that and the wages that

I was giving them and they get their room and board.

Or is it the room and utilities? I mean, so it's, it's, it's,

there's, there's an opportunity there if you want to pursue it.

And so that's where I'm looking for right now as I'm just

praying that Cole and I keep getting along good and and if

that works out so that he can, he can keep increasing and I can

I can decrease. I mean work point.

I don't have to have all them cows to because I don't have

that big of bills. And when they're paid for that

checks are a lot easier to deal with.

So I mean, so it can be a win win for both of us if we can

handle that, right. And that's where I'm at.

And it's, I think that's and like I say it's, I already

tested him out this year. I was gone 3 weeks to Arizona.

We was down there and we, we just, I just kept checking in

and I said, how's it going? And we had a cold spell there

and I said, how'd you get through there?

He said, well, I had a couple hydrogen freeze, but I got it

handled and everything's good. I said everything else good.

He goes, Yep. I said, OK, I'll see you in the

spring. Said you can be all ride to grub

line that long. I said, well, probably not, but

but so anyway, that's kind of my goal, just being able just like

right now we might granddaughter said got a she plays clarinet

and she's got a, a performance this weekend in Rapid City.

I tell Cole, I said, you going to be OK here this weekend?

He said, yeah, I can have it. I said, OK, I'll see you.

We're going to blast down there. Those things like that.

I'm free to go whenever I want then and that's then that's what

my that's what my goal is, was a hired man.

I mean, I, I feel like it's a it, you know, and this is this

is something that you that I have to remind myself just

because it was what I wanted when I was that age, it doesn't

mean everybody wants that. And and So what I think I'm

offering them that I would have died to get that when I was that

age might not be there after. And I think that's happened, you

know, so far with several of the guys, but hopefully this,

hopefully this will work And that's, that's that's the

biggest thing I'd be interested. And it it sounds like from that

you think there's still, there's still opportunity in the cattle

business for a young person that that wants to get started.

If you want to, if you. If you that passion word again,

you have to I mean, it might not be easy every year, but tell me

a business as is. I mean, unless dad hands it over

to you all paid for, you know, whatever business that might be,

you know, and and I really appreciate listening to Adam

Weatherby's honesty. You know, he said, you know,

people don't get in business like I got in business most of

the time, you know, and that's, and that's the truth of the

matter. And, and, but if you, if you are

determined to make it work there, you just, but you have to

get invented just like, just like I didn't have enough down

payment. I was not, I was not even close,

you know, and I, and through some creative things with

different things and we got the, got those three people to, to

help me out getting that started and I was able to get them paid

off in one year just because that's the way it worked with

the financial thing. You have to, you have to think

things like that, the outside the old outside the box act

saying, you know, and, and so it's, it's disheartening to me

when I, when I see it's too easy right now because I mean, there

is such a shortage of Labor. I mean, just like in Clermont, a

lot of them kids, they didn't go to trade school, they didn't go

to anything because they could go straight into the methane

field and they was making 30 bucks an hour.

I mean, that was like a goldmine to that age.

You know, that's more money than they ever dreamed they'd ever

have in their life. I mean, this is this was eight

years ago or whatever. And, and now, I mean, if they

was, if they was paying attention, I'm sure they can,

they can, you can keep going if you're interested in that field.

But if you're just doing it for the money, you're going to

bounce around and and never be satisfied.

So, but back to your original question, as far as I'm

concerned, if you really want it, you can find it.

I mean, there are, there are people out there.

I'm not the only one that doesn't have kids interested in

taking over the place or something.

I mean, there's guys and they might not want to sell.

I mean, same thing, but they can't run it themselves either.

So I mean, you look around, you can find things like that and

it's, and if you come across with a good plan for somebody, I

mean, that's just that's what works out so well for my

relationship with Charlie is once we had both been to that

school, then then we got together and we came up with a

plan and that benefited both of us.

And that's what I'd encourage anybody that was new to get into

it. And like we talked about

education. I mean, you got to you got to be

able to do this stuff. And if you can now there is so

many guys out there you can talk to.

I mean, there is, you know, the HRM is the one Ave. and then

there's it was Stan Parsons was actually the original partner

was Alan and he started his own company and he's sold it now to

a guy that's down in Wheatland and it's the same deal and very

intense. And, and, and then you have a

you have a network to help you all the time.

And that's important too. You know, you can you can find

these guys and that are I mean, you get around, you're talking

and he'll talk to you forever. So, so I mean, it's they, you

can pick up a lot of stuff and, and sometimes, sometimes it's

what not to do, you know, Oh. Some sometimes those are the

best lessons to. Learn there you go.

I mean, when when I tell people we lost 80 cows and they give me

this look like at once one year. It's a it was, it was an intense

thing, but it was extremely learning deal that that it made

the fact that we come out of that better showed me that we

was on the right track. We just needed to tweak it quite

a bit, stay off of the hot off of the hot stuff and and go the

other way. So but yeah, I to me it's it's a

no brainer. If you, if you are really

interested in it and agriculture, you can do it.

Yeah, it's there. And man, I think your story's

even a little more unique in that you, you didn't start out

with a family ranch. You, you started out as a hand

and have worked your way up to own your own place that that

seems like a bit of a rare story and and you did it through 20%

interest rates. Yeah, I love telling that story,

Eric. When them guys whined about it,

I said when I get to tell them you have my 1st 20 cows at 22%

and they're going, no way, that's never been that.

And I'm going, that's credit card, you know.

Yeah, just imagine what a credit card rate was at that time.

I can't even imagine, but you know, and that's it, yeah, it's

there. There's the stuff out there and

and there's, I mean, it's incredible to me when I hear

about the amount of money that's around that's available if you

if you have a good plan for some, I mean, some of them guys

are willing to help startups out.

I mean, it's, I mean, like I say, it's, it always blows me

away when I, when I see some of the cash that's flowing I'm, I'm

pretty ignorant. It's when I see some of that,

it's like, Oh my goodness. I mean, so anyway.

Was there somebody that you'd like to see on the show,

somebody with an interesting story or an interesting industry

that you'd like to learn more about?

My new neighbor, yeah, I haven't got to I haven't got to talk to

him to find out exactly what it is he does.

He's he's he is he is another guy.

They they just, they're in the process of getting this place

bought next to me and he's from down originally from Texas and

and he's living in Torrington right now.

But anyway, he has got all the he's got two.

He started two other businesses and right now he's in some kind

of a business and like I say, I don't know what it is, but he's

never had any college education and he started two different

successful businesses. And this one here is in the

process of selling for I don't know how much, but it's a buku

buck of dollars. And so, so I mean, guys like

that with no supposedly according to what used to be the

standard, if you don't have an education, he shouldn't have, he

shouldn't be there. And I mean, I think there's a

lot more people like that than a person realizes.

And he's a super nice guy. I mean, if I might, I might

throw his name out to, to him if throw your name out to him if if

you wish, because he, he's in the process now and he just, but

it's the same deal. He decided he's going to sell

it. And I mean, it's an

international company and he's just, they're going to family's

going to move on to the ranch and change their lifestyle.

Well. Good for them.

And yeah, I might have you make an introduction, see if we can

get him on and and learn a little bit more about it.

There's a oh. I'm sure he'd be.

He's easy to talk to you, so I think you'd I think you'd enjoy

him. Get a deal.

Well, our our last question, I know this might be a little bit

out of your wheelhouse, but either to fuel or settle the

debate, if you have a job to do that requires A cordless tool,

which brands do you prefer? I have, I started out with

Craftsman and now I got DeWalt and and and my hired man's got

some Milwaukee. So we got all batteries

scattered everywhere when you're talking about cordless tools.

You got the right tool, just got to find the battery exactly.

I love them them are them are definitely I'm not.

I am not particular as long as the batteries charged.

So, OK, well, thank you really much.

Thank you very much for joining me.

This has been a lot of fun. And yeah, I've learned a lot

about the cattle business and about you, and I hope our

listeners have as well. Well, I enjoyed it.

I was very nervous like you said, because like I told you

earlier, because when I see the my rollers on air, but but that

one guy, it was such an encouragement to him.

I'm pretty impressed with your podcast.

I, I think people can learn something from that.

Anybody that's interested in any kind of business, there's some

people on there that'll help you.

Absolutely, anyway. Awesome and thank you guys for

joining us here on From the Ground Up show.

Again, we're on most social media platforms at From the

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