Dr Michael Filosi – Built to Walk Away: A Dentist's 81-Day Exit

I walked into one of the rooms and there was a hole in the wall and there

was this fur there and I was like,

hmm, what's that? And I poked it and it moved.

And I was like, What's that? And it's like,

it's the possum. I said, What do you mean the possum?

Like, it's a dental practice, you know.

And I think that, you know, if if if being the most important person

in the business and having the business everything run through you,

it's great for your ego, but I say it's bad for your bank account when

it comes time to sell.

In my case, I generate 0.6%. So I said,

so with that in mind, I said, you don't need to keep me.

You know, like I'm not, I'm not the key moneymaker here.

Welcome to From the Ground Up Show.

Honest conversations with people who have built their lives,

careers, and businesses with heart,

hands, and hustle. Your host, Erick Loden,

acquired and scaled his family's roofing company,

growing annual revenue more than eightfold and operating profit about

15 fold before choosing an internal sale and retiring from the business at 37.

Join Erick and his guests for the hard-earned lessons behind real success.

Today's guest is Dr. Michael Filosi,

an Adelaide dentist, entrepreneur,

and exited founder who turned a neglected two chair dental practice with possums

living in the wall into a ten chair operation supported by more than thirty people.

Michael began his career as a clinician,

but his fascination with business,

leadership, and systems gradually pulled him from doing the work

to building an organization that could thrive without him.

Over ten years, he expanded Fullarton Park Dental,

developed young clinicians, strengthened its culture,

and reduced his own clinical production to less than 1% of revenue.

When he decided to sell, he approached private equity buyers directly and

Created a competitive process and completed a clean walk-in,

walk-out transition in just 81 days.

But the most revealing chapter may be what followed.

Discovering that financial freedom and the loss of a company can arrive together.

Michael joins us to unpack the building,

the exit, and the search for a meaningful life beyond achievement.

So Michael, that's quite the introduction.

Thank you for joining us. I'm I'm excited to hear more about it. My pleasure, yeah, no, thank you.

No, absolutely, I've been looking forward to this and yeah,

that that's a a lovely introduction and yeah,

there's a fair bit to unpack.

Wonderful. Well, I I am so excited to hear about your story and your exit Let's do it. and get some leadership advice.

But we like to start every show just getting to know you a little bit.

do you mind going clear back to the beginning and telling us a little

bit about your childhood and how you grew up? Sure. Yeah. So I'm in Australia, so that's the accent.

So yeah, I'm in Adelaide, Australia.

I was actually born in Queensland,

which is a different state. came to Adelaide when I was two,

grew up here in Adelaide. was a sporty kid,

liked sports and and and did okay at school.

and then yeah, started studying dentistry yeah,

when I when I left university.

So went straight from from high school into university,

which is what we can do here in and straight into dental school,

which is what we can do here in

Here in Australia, which think is a bit different to the states there.

But yeah, met my then girlfriend and now wife at university,

who's a dentist as well. And away we went from there.

Our first yeah, we we moved away to country Australia for our first jobs,

which is good fun. learned lots in that because you upskill,

because you see so many more patients and and and different types of work than

you do in the city. and then yeah,

a few years after that moved back to

To Adelaide and yeah, we we I started off as an employee dentist

and then eventually I moved on to to sort of I I was trying to figure out what

to do with the rest of my career and whether to to buy a practice or whether

to stay a as an employee. And in the end I decided to jump in.

I thought, yep, it's my time and I thought it I'd I'd jump in and

and buy a practice. And as you say,

it was a very run down practice,

which we'll which we'll get to.

So it was quite a

quite a jump and and and and yeah ended up being a project which kept

me pretty occupied for for ten years.

it sounds like quite an adventure.

what did success mean to you and your family when you were growing up?

Did did you have a a business or entrepreneurial model that you were kind

of following or w what what did success look like in your house? Yeah. It's a really interesting question.

I think my my dad, so I'm an come from an immigrant family.

So yeah, from Italian immigrants and and my dad instilled in me,

you know, a love of hard work.

So that was always important. And that was something that came through Erick really

strong. I've kind of got a theory.

My dad was a motor mechanic. So he'd come home and he'd have like grease caked

into his hands and then and all every little crevice.

Have you ever known someone who works with grease that that their their hands just

become every little line on it becomes black,

black as night.

And he's quite self-conscious about it because you know the office workers

all had lovely hands and his were his look like they were dirty.

But what I learned from him was the importance of hard work,

the importance of looking after your customers.

And I I saw him how much he he looked after his his his customers as a

as a motor mechanic, and it really impressed upon me that level of care.

And I think it translated, it kind of gave me a bit of a head start when

I had my business into to what people value.

So yeah, growing up, hard work was very much

at a premium, that was something that was sort of we always rewarded

and respected and and kind of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps

and and trying to do the very best you can,

you know. I think that was sort of the the the ideals that that were important

to us as a family.

that's a great example. And sounds like your dad was a hard working,

honorable man to take care of his customers with such care.

That's something you don't find here anyway,

in those trades very often. So w when you were growing up,

what what did you expect to do for a career?

I was dentistry a dream from early on or did you have other plans when

you were a kid?

Yeah, it it's a good question.

I I think I probably jumped around a bit.

Like I thought, you know, I thought,

do I become a lawyer? 'Cause I like doing d school debating and public speaking

and those sorts of things. I thought they were pretty fun.

and I liked math. So I really wasn't too sure.

And I think Erick, I was kind of lucky.

I did very well at school. So I kind of got to have my my pick of what

I wanted to do. And I was lucky I knew a few like I'd had a bit of dental work done

growing up and everyone involved in the field seemed pretty happy,

you know, and I know it paid well.

So I kind of based it on that as much as anything,

the fact that The people I knew who were doing this thing called dentistry,

they they seemed happy with their lot.

When I'd go in there, they seemed pretty chilled out and enjoying it.

And I sort of thought, Well, this doesn't seem like the worst thing in

the world to do. You know, you're paid well,

they seem happy, and it doesn't seem incredibly high stress.

so yeah, I thought I'd I'd I'd embark on that.

It was an honorable profession.

But yeah, growing up, I sort of jumped around a bit,

I think. I still wasn't sure quite what I wanted to do.

and it

Yeah, so so you jumped into dentistry in the end.

But yeah, there w there wasn't a a long thread of why I wanted to to do

it from the start. Yeah. It was something I kinda latched onto a bit later,

I suppose.

so did those assumptions prove true?

Was dentistry Yeah. as stress free as you originally thought?

No, not at all. No. I think I must have caught them on a good day or they were very

good at hiding it, I think. One of those two.

So no, it definitely isn't

stress free. and and business ownership is is is even more stressful,

I think. So look look, dentistry has its moments and I think it it's

a very rewarding profession and and and and it can get very stressful

if you're struggling to get a tooth out on someone and it's not coming out.

Yeah, absolutely it's it's it's stressful.

But you know, it's a really enjoyable,

honorable profession. I really like doing it and and I cared deeply about

it as well. So I I probably caught those gentlemen on a good day,

which is why they were pretty relaxed about it all.

But you know they they they weren't tearing their hair out.

But no it set a good example and and I mean I you know what I saw was what

it what it was, you know, that they they weren't trying to hide anything from me.

And yeah, it was it was something that I thought,

you know, it had honor, it was highly regarded in the in the society and

and it was something I thought

Yeah, let's let's let's embark on that and see how far I get.

you mentioned that when you graduated and first became a clinician,

you and your wife moved together and were both practicing Yeah. dentistry kinda in a in a country town.

w what did that look like? What what were the expectations Yeah. on your time, your competency,

your patient load?

Totally. It it's I think working in the country,

Erick, b to get you there, they've got to be really good mentors,

you know. So pe dentists who work in the country,

they've got a much broader skill set,

to be honest, than what those in the city do,

because they don't have a specialist they can refer to just down the street.

So they're forced to Yeah. get very good at basically everything and they're forced to learn

to nurture young graduates. So we're blessed.

We're very, very lucky to have good bosses who

took care of us, we upskilled us quickly and you saw the lot.

You were sort of forced to do everything.

So your your learning curve is is is is straight up pretty much.

And country people are lovely.

You know, they're sober the earth people.

They were always really grateful to be seen.

often they'd have to travel to get there.

And you know you were in demand.

So and you and the the good thing was I think working in the country,

you had full appointment books right from the start.

So whereas in the city you can sit around,

you know, not doing the whole lot,

waiting for patients to come and in the country will will

Chocolblock busy from the very first moment we started.

So it was a really good sort of apprenticeship,

so to speak, and in in and an introduction into the the profession of dentistry.

And we found that we upskilled a lot quicker than what our peers did.

but on a personal level, you know,

it was the first time, you know,

my wife had lived at a home, or she was then my girlfriend.

It was the first time we'd lived together.

We moved interstate to a, you know,

somewhere that's sort of 1400 kilometers or 1600 kilometers.

So what's that? About a thousand miles.

away from our hometown. and it was just the two of us there.

We didn't know anybody. So it was a big leap of faith,

I guess, in each other, but we supported each other and,

you know, we got married. So I suppose it went well.

So, you know, we must have supported each other along the way.

So yeah, it was definitely you know,

it was it was a big step and but we learned a lot.

So you have your first jobs there working together out in the country.

did you go straight from there to buying your practice or did you work

in other practices along the way?

Yeah, so so no, we what we did next was we we we came back to Adelaide

and and it was really interesting.

I I worked we both worked as an employee for a while.

And I was I was really scared to tell you the truth,

Erick, of of buying a business.

I I was really worried about whether I'd be any good at it.

And I I kind of I realized I I had a really strong fear of failure.

and and it sort of dawned on me that I was really scared of if I try this

and it stuffs up, you know, what are the consequences?

So I didn't excuse me, I didn't think I would do it.

I I really didn't.

But in the end, the practice I was working at,

it was a lovely place, but it wasn't going that well.

And I saw it was up quite high.

And I was looking down and I saw some skateboarders.

And these kids were on skateboards and they'd try these tricks and they'd always,

they'd never land their trick.

They'd land it one and every ten times.

And it kind of occurred to me that,

you know, this thing called business,

and and you know, if I was gonna have a go at it,

I wasn't gonna be good at it straight away.

Just like the skateboarders, I'd need to make mistakes and I need

to learn from those mistakes. But

know, you can't read a book on skateboarding or watch a video on skateboarding.

You've got to get out and jump on the board and give it a go.

And I realized it was the same thing for me that,

you know, I can read all the books on business or whatever else,

but at some point, if I'm serious about it,

I've got to give it a go. So in the end,

I was catching up with a friend actually,

and I sort of said, you know,

do you happen to know of any practices for sale?

He'd just set one up. And he said,

I think there's a quite a rundown one on Fullarton Road.

And I I knew the one he meant.

And I literally went from that coffee.

As soon as I finished, I went straight there and I knocked on the front door

and said, hi, my name's Michael.

I I I've heard there's a possibility of of buying in here.

And the rest is history, as they say.

So I I just yeah, I sort of acted straight away.

I didn't didn't let the grass grow under my feet.

And yeah, that became the the practice that I I bought into and and and

the one that I then scaled up to to be the biggest in my city.

So yeah, all from that one conversation,

all from that one coffee.

man. And just headed straight into the fire.

You you said you were quite afraid of it and kinda hesitant and Yeah. just one day you gotta be like the skateboarders and go for it,

huh? Totally. That that was it. I remember s yeah,

that's the skateboarding

thing. And I just remember thinking like if they can do it,

I can do it, you know. And I and I I was I thought I'd try and master

it before I actually did it. And you can't.

You can't do that with any skill.

At some point you gotta you've gotta give it a go,

you know. And so that's what I realised that hey,

I've gotta kind of move past this idea of of of fear of failure.

You know, I will fail, as long as it's not,

you know, fatal or ultimate, then then I can get up and keep going.

But you're gonna you're gonna fail lots,

you're gonna learn lots, but that's what

sort of accelerate your growth.

So that's kind of what yeah, what what helped me along that realisation.

So as you say, I sort of yeah,

I I I thought it was, you know,

rather than just dip my toe in it was time to jump in.

See y you said you'd kind of been intrigued by that idea.

I mean, if you had such a failure and had thought about it quite a bit,

it it means you were probably ruminating on it a little bit. Yeah. Hundred percent. you mentioned

reading all the books. W what what steps did you take to become prepared

and build the level of confidence you needed to dive in?

I think initially it's a good question,

Erick. I think initially it was a mental shift.

So I I did I was studying a course on failure,

ironically enough, and and my I we did a standardized test and and my fear

of an uncertain future was off the charts high.

And I thought, well, the only way you can kind of try and take control

of your future is to try and take control of your life,

not be at the mercy of someone else.

And that for me was business ownership.

So that's kind of was the mental switch.

for those watching behind me, I I did read a lot when I got into business.

So I'm six foot six tall.

But behind me is a big stack that that Erick will be able to see and

the w anyone watching. That's a stack of business books,

my height, that I read to try and get better at this thing called business.

So absolutely I was going to make mistakes,

but that's not to say you can't still upskill.

So I was committed to learning and growing,

both the theoretical aspect of reading those books,

but also the practical aspect of of giving it a crack and and getting in there

and yeah, learning as I went.

So I think it was a combination of of a mental shift in my head of going,

you can't sit on the sidelines,

you need to jump in.

then also going, right, if I'm gonna do this,

I might as well do it the very best I can.

And there's plenty of people who've done it before.

So let's let's see what they have to say.

Let's see if I can learn along the way.

So I'll still fall in some pitfalls and pick potholes,

but maybe I won't learn in every single one.

Maybe I can avoid a few because Ha ha. I can learn from someone else.

where did your wife stand on that decision?

Was she as hesitant as you were?

Was she more all in? What did she say when you came home from having coffee with

a friend and said, I want to buy a run Yeah. down dentist's office?

Totally. Look, I I think when I switched,

I switched. So all of a sudden I was all fire and she was the ice,

you know, and it's sort of the story, Ha ha. you know, opposites attract. And I think she's always been a fair

bit more circumspect than me. So she tells me,

you know, the counterbalance of why I maybe I shouldn't shouldn't do something,

but she still backs me to take big swings at life and big swings at things.

So, you know, she was I I think my wife,

she is you know, I'm very, very fortunate,

but she she kinda backed me to have a go.

She backed me to have a crack and and and to do it.

And she thought, you know, Michael,

if you think you can do it, then I'm not gonna stand in your way.

So yeah, that's kind of what what I decided to give it a go and to see if

I could do it myself. And she wasn't,

you know, rah-rah, like cheerleading for me,

but she she supported me. and and she thought,

she she trusted me. She thought,

if you think you can do it, Michael,

then I'll I'll support you. So that was the the support that she had.

And yeah, I'm I'm very grateful to her for that.

Th did she move her practice over to your new office immediately or what

did that transition look like?

Okay. No, we spread our risk. So she was working somewhere

else for someone else. And and the the the the smart thing to do is,

you know, she did support me, but the smart thing to do is to go,

you you know, I'll keep doing my thing.

So if it does fail, Yeah. at least we've got a backup plan over here.

So no, she she kept working at the practice that she was at initially.

She was happy as well. You know,

she was happy there. And yeah,

absolutely. We we spread our risk initially by doing that.

Then when we had our daughter afterwards,

she didn't end up going back to where she was working.

She came across and and and worked with me.

So She did come across in the end and and she was happy to,

and it made sense. By that stage,

it was looking really nice, it was going well,

and and she's a great dentist,

so she was an asset to the practice.

but no, initially to answer your question,

it it wasn't we didn't put all our eggs in that basket.

She kept her job. I worked away and tried to to bring the place I bought up

to up to speed. But then when it was clear that it was winning,

yeah, she she joined us then.

That sounds like a smart way to go.

And yeah, you you got that fire and ice,

the the gas and brakes mixed in there,

a little bit of wisdom with how you approach that.

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So Hundred percent, yeah, very much so.

buying this practice, you said a moment ago buy into the practice. Mm-hmm. I know you ended up owning the whole thing.

what did that

process look like? Did you buy Yeah. into a partnership and eventually take over?

Did you buy it all at once? And what did that valuation look like

on a rundown struggling practice?

So so really good question, Erick.

So there are a whole lot of negotiations happening at the start.

So I I think I began with the end in mind.

I knew what I wanted. And what I wanted was to own the entire business

and I wanted to own the property on which it was based as well.

Okay. So I wanted to have them both.

So there were a couple of separate negotiations.

The first one I had to buy into the practice.

So I bought a 50% share with a gentleman who was a dentist or is a dentist

and and he

He was a lot older than me. He was,

you know, as old as my parents.

I went through school with one of his sons,

actually. So he needed an exit strategy and I needed an entry strategy.

So I bought in half the practice and we had an agreement to buy his half

out in five years' time. Well ended up being 10 years' time,

because we're both happy with that.

But I bought the rest of his practice out down the s down the track,

basically. But I made clear at the start,

look, here's the buy-in, and and he came to me with a figure,

and it was a really reasonable figure.

You know, he didn't I wasn't buying much at that stage because it was so run down and I knew

you know he he couldn't be charging me the earth for it.

So so I was quite happy with that.

But then what what I did do is tie my buyout price for him to that figure as well.

Cause I knew I was going to work really hard,

grow the practice, and I didn't want have to double pay basically.

So I negotiated with him to grow to buy his half for the same amount plus CPI.

So I had to grow up each year just incrementally with inflation,

but not have to rebuy out at a much,

much, much higher pace if I'd worked that out.

The other thing I did was to buy the property as well.

So that was really important to me.

I wanted that as an asset. So that was with someone else.

I had to negotiate the purchase of the property on which the practice worked.

And in the end, actually down the track,

I ended up buying the property next door as well.

And we demolished that and turned it into a car park for our patients.

So that was a little old lady who was 100,

who who, you know, she was close to the end.

And I sort of, it's a bit of a tricky conversation to have with someone,

and I got along really well with her.

And I sort of said, you know.

how would you feel when you you pass on that that I you know I'm happy

to to buy your property is it at market rate and and and yeah we we agreed to that.

So yeah when she passed away then then I purchased the property and then

we yeah we we extended and we had the prop the the practice then continued

to grow the physical footprint.

that sounds like a really wise structure to kind of set that price

up front and increase it by the CPI.

it's kind of fair to everybody if you're gonna come in and make changes.

I was speaking with a friend just last week,

not on a podcast, and he he's kinda in the opposite situation.

He bought into a business and has grown it significantly.

Mm-hmm. And be because he helped grow it significantly,

now the the price to buy the rest of it has gone up significantly and it it's almost like

he's working against himself there.

the more he grows the This is the problem.

business, the more it costs to buy it.

So That's it. was that where did that inspiration come from?

Did you you was that a mentor,

a book, just an idea you had? Where where did that idea come from?

I think just playing a lot of board games growing up and learning about strategy Ha ha and things, to be honest. So, no,

I I came up with it. I didn't have a mentor or someone who suggested it.

But I think it was I'm a big believer,

you know, playing board games and card games and strategy games growing up.

You learn how to negotiate, you learn how to strategize,

you learn how to think ahead, you learn,

you know, how to negotiate with people who are bad actors who are not

on side with you. You learn how to negotiate in good faith with people

you want to keep playing with.

So all those skills kind of came to the fore.

But It was really clear to me that just buying half in,

like you're saying, your friend,

right? That was the easy half.

The hard half was to figure out how to buy this other person out when

he wanted to sell. And I I didn't want to muck around with that.

I'd seen a lot of my dad is saying the only ship that stinks is a partnership,

you know. So if I was going to enter into this partnership, Ha ha.

I wanted to know how I could buy the other gentleman out.

And I wanted to make it fair for him too.

So

We he I agreed to his buying price and then he agreed that I'd buy him out

at at his price plus CPI in five years for the exact reason you mentioned,

Derek. I knew I was gonna move be moving heaven and earth to grow

the practice and the business.

And then you do all that, and then you end up having to pay half again

for goodwill that you've generated.

And it didn't make any sense. I knew I was gonna be the other guy just wanted

to go in and do his dentistry,

which is fine, but then why should I be paying him again in five years time

if I've helped if I've you know,

I'm paying for my own hard work.

So I I think

probably it was a bit prescient and and a good good idea in advance to

to think that through and think,

I know which way this is going to go.

I want to tie down the buy out price now,

early, have it documented and made it really easy when the time came

and he got certainty too. Ultimately,

you know, he wants to exit. He wanted to he wanted to know that someone,

me, was going to buy him out at the end.

So it gave him, it meant he could work his final five to ten years and

not have to worry about it because he knew what that would look like.

He knew who he was selling to.

He knew was gonna get the money and he knew what the price was gonna be.

So he could plan for that as well.

And it meant that I didn't have to double pay.

that's great. That's great. So financing this buy in,

I I Mm. imagine as a dentist, or two dentists in your house,

you were probably making pretty good money.

were you able to s save up and buy in with cash?

Did you have to finance the buy in?

What did that look like? We did have to finance it, absolutely.

So yeah, we'd been working for ten years.

So yeah, we had a we had capital behind us,

right? So that was that was good.

But we still had to finance it.

But the thing was, Erick, that the initial the buy in price was not very high.

The the the the costs are enormous when it came to buying the property

and then doing two massive extensions.

So the bank, you know, they they were on the hook for a lot for the loans for that.

But the actual buying the business itself,

because we were buying so little,

it wasn't very much money, you know,

like it was a you know, smallish six figure sum,

to to to buy in and then to buy the other half,

that all the costs, which were enormous,

were actually in buying the property and then doing massive renovations

two times over to it. So that's where the money came.

That's where that's what cost us.

And that's where, yeah, we we did we we we funded that with with loans from

the bank. So you know we're personal guarantor for it.

And then but the banks here are pretty good with lending to dentists because they're

pretty low risk in the sense of,

you know, it's it's it's pretty unusual for a dentist to go to

go bankrupt unless you've sort of got Yeah. a a gambling or a drug habit habit,

which I've got neither, thankfully.

So that wasn't gonna happen. But you know,

th you you're good for it. So they're happy to lend you the money.

And you know, I was a good a very good client.

You know, I I paid everything off fast and quick and and and didn't muck around.

So yeah, it was all funded with yeah,

we with with bank loans.

y that's a great segue. You mentioned the the remodels.

kind of the hook here in the introduction is,

you know, a building had possums living in the wall.

It it Yeah. it sounds like was significantly run down.

can you help us understand I mean,

it sounds like there's still functioning dental practice.

It it wasn't totally abandoned,

but in pretty poor condition. w what did the building and what

did the practice look like? What what did you take on Yeah. Good question.

when you bought in?

So it's twenty fifteen, Erick,

and and literally it didn't have a computer in the whole place.

It which is not that long ago,

2015, you know, computers were around by then, No. you know? Like it's it's it's

2015, not nineteen ninety-five or nineteen eighty five.

So there wasn't a computer in the whole place.

It didn't have a website, it didn't even have an answering machine,

you know. So if you called after hours,

it would just ring out. And and I went in there and literally I talk about

the possums like

I walked into one of the rooms and there was a hole in the wall and there

was this fur there and I was like,

hmm, what's that? And I poked it and it moved.

And I was like, What's that? And it's like,

it's the possum. I said, What do you mean the possum?

Like, it's a dental practice, you know.

So I was busy Googling how to get rid of possums from walls and you've

got shine bright light up there to scare them off or something.

So you know, I literally bought the worst practice in the city and then,

you know, not many people can say they've owned the worst of their industry

and then the best. But I've I've done both.

I took it from worst to best.

you know, I was up there in the roof trying to get rid of all

the possum carcasses and the macadamia nut shells and all those sorts

of things to to get rid of them all and and close up all the gaps.

So literally, yeah, it had possums in the walls there and a and a hole

in the wall that that they'd sort of,

you know, you could you could see the the fur.

So very quickly though, the the thing was though that was interesting,

right? That the the caliber and the state of the the building didn't reflect

the quality of the dentistry. The quality of the dentistry was really quite high,

you know. So there was a lot there.

I I the the building might not have been very good,

but the the dentistry was high and there were loads of patients.

When I looked at you you know,

one way to know what you're buying is you're asked to look at

the appointment book and you want to see how busy they are.

And literally it was a book. It was a proper,

you know, pen and paper or or or lead,

pencil and paper. And you know,

there were pages and pages and pages of patients booked in for weeks on end,

you know, and it just kept going.

Every time I turned the page, there were more and more.

So you know ultimately you need

You need patients, you need bums on seats to pay the bills.

And I could see there was definitely that.

But what it needed was someone with some,

you know, youthful energy to come in and try and you know,

do the place up and make it look nice and and bring it up to speed because

the the people there were good,

you know. Like my colleague was doing really good dentistry,

he was well liked, he was a good guy,

but you know, he just there,

it needed a spruce up.

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that that sounds like almost the the perfect recipe to buy into something with

good quality, good reputation,

good patient base, but not utilizing any

modern advantages at all. It like Yeah. you said, it allows you to buy in at a reasonable rate

but has incredible opportunity to leverage new resources.

tell us a little bit about that process.

You s you said you had the opportunity to own the worst practice in town

and the best practice in town. That's right. How how do you get from one to the other?

Yeah, that's a lot that's a very we we'll need lots of podcast episodes

for that 'cause it's a it's a long journey but a but a fun one.

So look, I I think initially you you're quite right.

I others just saw the risk. Others just saw the possum and didn't actually bother

to check the the underlying bones of the place and go,

Hey, there's a fair bit of potential here,

you know. So I think they didn't see that.

They didn't see what it could become.

So for me, the first thing to do was to

to get the team on board. So I looked after patients well and made sure they knew

that I I cared deeply about doing the right thing by by the patients and the staff.

So they they got on board. First few things we did was staff got

all new uniforms because I wanted them to to look good and I wanted them

to feel good. And I wanted to know,

hey, you know, we value you and now that we're a professional practice

and everything's gonna get a bit of a you know a spruce up and and

and here's some nice uniforms.

And the other thing we did in the waiting room,

we had some very old run down fabric chairs that,

you know, 30 odd years old probably. And and I went and bought some new chairs,

you know, some green, because green was our colour.

Some green, nice new chair chairs.

But then when patients would come in,

they'd notice that. They'd notice every single patient would come in

and sit on those chairs and they'd know,

hey, something's happening here.

So, you know, they weren't the final chairs we got.

We ended up getting, you know,

as we grew, we got more and and bigger and better ones.

But I wanted to demonstrate to the team via the uniforms,

yep, we're on here, we're gonna make a crack at it,

and then this the patients as well.

Just something small for starters,

but they could see that someone's come with an agenda for change.

and away we went from there.

So initially I I just got busy,

Erick. I think, you know, rather than sort of think too much about it,

there were stacks to do, so I just cracked in.

So, you know, in my lunch break,

if a tree needed to be pulled out,

then I'd be out there in gardening gloves taking the tree out,

or if a door frame needed to be knocked down,

then I'd be doing that. So

I just did everything I humanly could to do as much as I could,

as quickly as I could, and and and bring it forward.

And and there were lots of low-hanging fruit and and easy wins,

you know. Everywhere you looked, there was something to do. So it wasn't Ha ha ha. it wasn't hard to find

you know, tasks to do. But while also still very much focused on

the patient care and knowing, hey,

they're gonna underpin the growth here,

you know. We need patients, we need to retain our existing ones

and grow the practice. So I made sure I looked after them really well

and and took good care of them.

but initially

it wasn't hard to find things to do,

you know, it was really just look around,

see something, go, right, I we can fix that or we can do that or do something else.

So there was lots to do. And I think at that stage of my life,

I was, you know, 31, I needed something,

pardon the pun, but to sink my teeth into,

you know, like I needed something to really jump into and and,

you know, engage with and it provided that to me and more,

you know, it sort of took up a lot of my headspace and and while it was fun,

it was a lot of fun and and and it gave me enormous joy to to grow it,

to build it and to do something with it.

man, that's great. Well th this was not on my radar,

not on my agenda at all, but it kind of popped into my head just as

you were talking there. We talked about Sure.

the the wisdom of kind of setting the value of the practice up front,

increasing by the CPI. Hmm. Yeah.

But then you're talking about some capital investments,

you know, computers, uniforms,

furniture. How do you balance that and equal that out with your partner where

he was probably used to getting more distributions Totally. Yeah.

and having less capital investment?

You're spending his capital to spruce up the place,

but yet the purchase price has set.

Yeah, it's a really good question.

And how we sort of resolved that pretty quickly was I also didn't want

to have to buy back depreciated assets in five or ten years time

and you're arguing over, you know,

what are what a chair's worth or what's this worth and what's that worth.

So I I I bought for I paid for the lot and then I rented them back to him,

basically. So that's how it worked,

and that worked out really easily because it meant that we could keep

the assets separate that I knew that,

you know, and and to be honest,

he didn't want to be spending money and I got it.

Like when he's already over sixty and he when when Yeah. I get there.

And he knows you he's close to the end than the start.

What why does he want to be spending hundreds and hundreds of thousands

of dollars on new equipment and and and millions of dollars on things?

It doesn't make any sense. So for me to say to him,

hey, can you put your hand in your pocket and pay for this?

And then I'll I'll pay buy it back off you later,

it made no sense. So it was easy for me to go,

I'll buy everything, I'll pay for everything.

But then basically I I leased the use of it back to him and the practice.

And so he's paying a little bit each month or whatever it might be to

To make use of all that, you know,

shiny new equipment. But the shiny new equipment also,

you know, provided us with revenue because we could get new new team members into

to make us money. So yeah, that's how it worked.

And and and it worked well, you know.

Like I think that was the obvious in my head.

It just made sense of, you know,

he's not gonna want Yeah. to buy all this stuff. Why would he?

And I don't wanna, you know, I'd rather just own it all now rather than have

to negotiate to buy half the share of a depreciated asset back.

So I bought the lot and then leased it back to the practice basically at a

you know, fair rate so that then I was still having some money come in

to pay for it, but he wasn't having to to have a large capital outlay.

That that's a good way to do it. I just last year exited my company and it

it was not a drawn out process.

It we spent about six months I think,

but there still was a gap between when we set the price and kinda negotiated Yeah. it and actually closing. And there were a few times during that process that

we just needed needed some new equipment Yeah. or a great opportunity came up for a piece of equipment at a great price

and was my operations manager was part of the the buyout here in

there's a couple of times I'd walk into the office and say,

Well, you're welcome. I just bought you a new truck today,

you know. Like I'm Absolutely. I'm spending my money to get an asset that you're gonna own soon.

So Totally.

yeah, especially over a five or a ten year buyout process that Yeah. could that could add up. So Absolutely. No, I think it it's always tricky those things,

you know. So I I think it's just a matter of thinking from both sides

and trying to figure it out. And and it sounds like you,

you know, if you can negotiate that in six months,

you've done what really well. But it's a bit of give and take both ways,

you know. And I think that I was fortunate the gentleman I brought in with

was a reasonable fellow. I'd like to think I was reasonable as well.

So we kind of and because we're at such different ends of our careers,

it was obvious what each of us wanted and what we wanted was different things,

you know. He wanted certainty.

He wanted an exaplan and to not have to put his hand in his pocket too much.

I wanted the reins to be able to grow this thing. Yeah. I wanted my entry. So it was sort of like two jigsaw puzzles coming together that

that that it was the inverse of each other.

And and and we both ended up getting what we wanted.

And yeah, we we figured it out pretty quickly,

I think. I think, you know, we both just wanted to to get on with it.

And he had no interest in any of those things.

And I was very interested in it.

So he kind of stayed out of my way.

Then he wanted to just to do his dentistry and then I was perfectly happy with that.

So it worked out well for both.

was there much of an existing support staff there?

How how did the rest of the staff respond to you coming in with

all of these changes?

Yeah. It's a really interesting point.

Anyone listening who is in that position that getting buy-in from

the existing team is incredibly important,

right? So don't just think that,

you know, don't assume they're gonna,

you know, just jump on board what you're trying to do.

You have to think very, very carefully about it.

And and there'll be people listening who'll be nodding their head going,

Yep, I know exactly what he's talking about there.

So there was, I think there was only five staff members initially at the start.

And and one of them I was really clear,

Erick, that I didn't want to take on.

I said to my colleague, I said,

like, She she's, you know, there was one who,

you know, she'd come in in tracksuit pants and and pink sneakers and I was like,

nah, she's just not she's not up to it and and I made that clear.

she was a nice lady, but I just didn't want to employ her.

So the others I was very keen to keep on and I think you know,

the the state of the practice was such that anyone who came on board

in me was always gonna wanna change things.

So they understood that. But it still I spent time making sure that I,

you know, built on those relationships,

you know. I wanted them to

To know that I saw them as part of the future,

that I cared about what they thought and that I was going to treat them well.

So, you know, when you're the new person and everyone's looking at you

for trying to figure out what type of person you are.

So, you know, you need to invest in those relationships.

you know, or for starters, you need figure out,

you know, who's going to help you grow this thing and who's not.

And I figured out the one lady who wasn't and the others,

yeah. Like I I could see them as valuable parts of the business and I

let them know that, that I I value their contribution,

that I want them to stick around and and that.

I want them to be part of the future and and and I think them knowing that helped

and then kind of trying to, you know,

not sell, but trying and demonstrate what I had in mind and and and why it would be,

you know, it wasn't a hard sell because when you're doing things up,

everyone likes to work Yeah. in nice places. So when you're trying to explain,

look, this will look nicer, that'll look nicer,

we'll put a TV in here, we'll do that there,

the chairs will be nice, you'll get nice uniforms.

It wasn't a tricky, difficult pitch.

They were all pretty happy with it there.

so it it wasn't too bad. And and I think

As you go on then, you know, we finished with 35 team members.

And I remember the first Christmas party was around my colleagues' dinner table.

It was just the five of us. And then when we finished,

there were these three massive tables at a restaurant.

You know, I'm thinking, wow, we've we've come a long way.

But as you go, the more people then all of a sudden,

you know, people who come on board,

you've employed yourself. So they're kind of marching to the beat

of your drums straight away rather than you inheriting Yeah. them. So it makes a bit of a difference when that's the case and

you know that you've employed them yourself and they know that,

you know, they've they they've only ever known you as the boss.

that's that's that can be helpful too,

as opposed to inheriting some people.

But for the most part I was fortunate that the people who who we

did inherit and then I took over were were all good operators,

good workers and and good people.

So I I know a big part of your story is kind of the arc of going from practicing Mm-hmm. clinician to really diving into business and becoming more of a businessman Hundred percent.

operating a team rather than a a clinician.

was that your vision or your goal when you first bought the practice?

Or were you more just buying a practice to have both sides of it to kind

of be your own employer?

Totally. Look, so Erick, I very much when I bought him,

I I had a dental degree and and that's what I thought I'd be doing,

you know. So I I bought myself a job,

basically, you know, like I'm I'm obviously a husband and a father and

and I wanted to be able to provide for my family.

So that's what I bought. the interesting thing is and what I pivoted on,

Erick, is is realizing that I was serviceable as a dentist,

but there were people who could do it a lot lot better than what I could.

Their hand skills were a lot lot better than what mine were.

And I realized, I remember exactly where I was,

and I realized that I was not going to be the best clinical dentist in my city,

but I realized that I thought I could have a real red hot go at trying

to have the best dental practice.

And then all of a sudden my mind shift shifted.

And everything then went from instead of investing in how do I be the best dentist

I can be, ever all of my efforts then shifted to how do I have

the best dental practice in my city.

And it kind of pivoted very, very quickly from one to the other.

And from that point forward, I think I looked at it,

I was a I was a dentist by profession and I was still registered,

but I I I thought of myself as a as a business owner,

I suppose. Yeah. And so I didn't to answer your question specifically,

I didn't do it with a view to doing what I ended up doing.

It got a lot bigger than what I ever thought was possible.

But I did at some point decide to make that switch and go,

you know, I need to think about this as a business and as a true business owner.

And ultimately, yeah, I removed myself from the delivery of that service.

So I wasn't seeing patients anymore.

I was overseeing the business,

I was mentoring staff, but wasn't providing the dental care itself.

when was that? I y about Yeah. how long into the process or or maybe what was happening that helped you Sure. have that realization?

It you so re both really good questions.

I think it was about five years into my 10 year journey.

And there were two two things for it.

One, I could see we're growing and and that you know,

and and there's this interesting idea of like when you make big decisions,

are you running from the darkness or you're running towards the light?

So for me, I wasn't running away from dentistry,

I was running towards this thing called business ownership.

I was perfectly happy, I wasn't brilliant at it,

but was perfectly happy doing dentistry.

But I was really fascinated. It felt like a bigger game to be

I'm the business owner and see how far I could take that.

The other thing was I kind of I talk about this idea that it felt like

I had three cups in my life, which was,

you know, being a father, being a dentist and being a business owner,

but only had enough water for two.

And then I had to kind of figure out,

well, what do I do with that problem,

right? Like one of these glasses is not going to get much water.

And what I realized was that, you know,

I didn't want to give up being a father and I didn't want to give

up being a business owner. And they're the two that I can't get someone else

to do them for me.

So the one that was left was dentists.

So I realized that was the one that I could have other people come in

and do the dentistry, but I wanted the water to go into the two cups

of of business ownership, which I really enjoyed and loved,

and then also being a parent, but allow and have others and employ others

to do the dental side of things and do the dentistry itself.

So those couple of things, as we grew,

it was kind of almost a necessity to do it.

I was going in on the weekends looking after the business just quietly because there

were no patients there. And and

It's not good, you know. I wanted to be home more.

So I kind of decided it was gradual,

five years in. I said to my team members,

I let my senior team know. And I ended up dropping a day a week

for every six months. So I went from four clinical days a week

to three clinical days a week to two clinical days a week,

and then to zero clinical days a week after.

So maybe in dentistry this would be a a little bit different.

Like you said, you you plan a schedule and you can kind of schedule your days,

but I've talked to people that sit on kind of two sides of that,

some that own a business and were never really a practitioner,

and Mm-hmm. they can really focus on growing the business but are a little bit beholden

to the skilled people that work underneath them.

Yeah. and then I've I've talked to the practitioners that end up building

a business kind of like you did,

and a lot of

them talk about having difficulty putting the tools down.

And that when when the emergency comes up,

they're like, Well, I'm here, I might as well do it.

They grab their tools, they just go to work. Totally. And I had one guest not very long ago kind of talked about a a burning

the ships moments where he he gave away his tools and put somebody else

in his truck so that him solving that problem was just not an option.

What was that transition like for you?

Was it a benefit being both a business person that had the skill?

was it difficult to kind of let go of doing the work and focus on

the business or was that an easy transition?

So having I can absolutely see what you what you're referring to,

and I've seen that play out exactly like you said.

They're both challenging things.

So being a business owner, I thought it was really crucial the fact that

to own a dental practice, I thought it was crucial that I'd done a dental degree.

Okay. So rather than having an accountant that owns it,

and then how does an accountant try and converse with a dentist about clinical care

or or or billing more or whatever else?

It doesn't make sense. They're talking two different languages.

So in some ways

Having had my dental degree, it became almost like an apprenticeship

for being a dental practice owner,

to be honest. So the fact that as the business owner,

I was a clinician at heart and I knew all those challenges,

I thought it meant that I could relate to my clinical team a

lot stronger through that lens rather than coming in as a yeah,

as a non-clinician. That's for sure.

So that that that definitely worked to my advantage.

To answer your other question,

the problem with that is though,

that when you can do both.

You always wanna jump back to the previous one,

you know, and and and you wanna I think I like the saying, Or or you just do it by necessity. yeah. They somebody calls

in sick, an emergency patient comes in. Totally. You know, the i on any given day something happens and it it's often

the initial response of like, Well,

I can do that

Totally. And all of a sudden your five days are full of dentistry instead

of running a business. But sorry,

I interrupted you there. No, you're right. I'm laughing because everything you're saying,

it's spoken like someone who who knows,

like it's like, yep, you get it.

It's exactly right. So, you know,

I think that the whole burning the boats thing,

sometimes you do have to do that to prevent yourself.

And and I I like the saying, you know,

like you you've got to wanna be a caterpillar,

sorry, you've got to wanna be a butterfly so much you can't possibly imagine being

a caterpillar anymore. So for me,

I was so wanting to focus on this business thing that I had,

you know, I just lost my interest in being a dentist because you know,

I would still jump in. Like some of those things are still true.

Like if someone was sick.

Patients were booked in. I didn't want to turn them away,

but I I never really took a backwards step.

I never questioned it. I never thought about going back on the tool seriously.

I was I was absolutely committed and driven.

And I think that you you can't,

you know, you're trying to get to second base.

You've got to you've really got to run from first and run hard.

You can't kind of take a few tentative steps off first base,

turn around and run back, you know,

to safety. So I was keen to to push out and really

You know, I don't tend to do things by half measures.

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I I wanna r roll back a step here real quick.

I just thought of a question that I can only imagine Sure. Let's do it.

how it would go in my house. You you said your wife was very supportive,

she was always behind you. she wasn't maybe,

you know, all in the way that you were,

but she believed in you, she supported you.

what did she think when she first saw the building that you wanted to buy?

She was pretty shocked. Yeah. she Ha ha. she was very shocked in her own understated Hmm. way. So look, it was it was weird because I was so proud of it.

Like I was in love. It was like having the ugliest baby and still thinking it's Yeah.

gorgeous. I just thought it was the best.

So, you know, even though I I talk about it being the worst and things,

and it's sort of I I thought it was amazing.

I I loved it right from the very start.

I was totally in love with it.

But it's fair to say, yeah, I think sh she was pretty shocked.

at the state of it. yeah, it it was yeah,

it it was very run down. And I think she when I told her about it

and I'd told her, look, it's it's you know needs some work,

but I don't think she expected it would be quite what it was.

So yeah, I'm probably fortunate to have an understanding wife who was happy

for me to to have a go at her because I think ninety-nine percent

of other women would think, What the hell are you doing?

you know, so

Yeah, d I'm just thinking back to that now with a laugh because yeah,

she she was she was fairly yeah,

fairly surprised at at the state of it,

I suppose.

Yeah, I bet. i my dad has done that to my mom a few times, Yeah. taking her to properties with holes in the walls and animals living in Dave. and she's always trusted him enough to go with it.

I I don't know that I could get my wife excited about buying a property that looked

like that. That would be that would be difficult.

But Yeah, I think it takes a certain type of woman to to do that,

that's for sure. So,

I think I'm I I am lucky, yeah,

because it's it it wasn't everyone's cup of tea.

but yeah, I think she sort of just sort of thought,

Okay, Michael, if you think you can do it,

but yeah, I don't think she was in a rush to t that maybe that's why

she wasn't so keen to join me.

She would just stay where she was initially.

It looked a lot nicer than than when I started there.

So no, look, she she supported me,

but I think, yeah, she would have had her not so much her doubts in me,

but you know I mean everyone looked at it and thought it didn't have a future.

So she wouldn't have been alone in thinking that,

that's for sure. But thankfully she let me have a crack at it 'cause I could sort

of I I thought I could make it work and and it did.

But no, I think yeah, she definitely had had reservations,

it's fair to say.

All right. So, you you bought the business kinda as buying a job, Mm-hmm. Correct. like you said. You

start building it, start building your team,

eventually catch this vision to be a business owner and ran

the business rather rather than being a clinician.

as you started really scaling up,

w what did that look like? How how do you decide when you can

take on the expense of a another addition,

another remodel, the expense of bringing on another clinician.

What were kind of the the big turning points of growth as you move through that

process?

Yeah, good question. I I think there's a few different mental models that

you use and then that's a bit of gut feel too,

you know. And I think that what we tried to do is I think when we'd find that

all the existing clinicians were booked out two weeks in advance,

that was kind of the trigger to get someone else on,

you know. So if if everyone there was very,

very busy and you'd look in their appointment books and and for two weeks solid they

didn't really have any pro any spare slots,

that was almost a thing of okay,

cool, let's bring let's bring someone else on here.

but it's it's it's hard, you know,

because everyone you bring on, it's it's it's it's more money,

you know, to to pay them, of course.

So you've got to be careful not to bring them on too soon when you don't have enough

work for them. So but I think that was kind of the mental model with with

clinicians, at least and everything in dental practice,

everything spawns and comes from the the the clinicians,

the people delivering the care.

So every time you get a clinician,

then you need another dental assistant.

Every time you've kind of got two clinicians,

you need another receptionist.

So the the two week rule sort of work for the clinicians and

Everything cascaded from there,

I suppose, in terms of what to do with the rest of the auxiliary staff from there.

so it was a bit of, you know, rules of thumb and and and like that.

And it was a little bit of of gut feel as well of like,

look, can we afford to take someone on and and what's that gonna look like

and and those sorts of things.

I was fortunate I had pretty early on,

I I brought in a practice manager who was my closest ally and and she was brilliant.

So she sort of I was keen to focus on the business growth and and

had a sort of a strong entrepreneurial bent and and she she also had

a very good business head but she sort of managed the staff and then took that load

off of me so that made my life easier that I wasn't having to do directly with them.

So she was helpful in overseeing that as well and doing projections

and things and and she would come to me and say Michael we need another

and then this role. I'd go, okay,

cool, look if that's what we need to,

you know, make the case for it and she'd explain it and it was always

you know she was right and then okay okay cool look let's do that then.

So She also had really good optics on it.

She had a very good sense of of what we needed and when.

And so I relied on on her as well to kind of what she felt we needed.

So there's a bit of teamwork there.

We played off each other very well.

We worked together very well. And you know,

we we we there was a fair bit of shared decision making in that sense.

and w at what point in time, what size were you when you hired her?

Yeah, so it's a funny story actually.

So I I had known her before. We'd worked together very,

very early in our careers when she was a dental assistant and I had just started

off doing working as a dentist.

And she had aspirations to do it to be become a practice manager

and I had aspirations maybe to to run a business one day.

And then for sort of eight, ten years we didn't have much to do with each other.

And then when it came time to get a we we we both went out and got our you know,

found our found our feet.

And then I I gave her a call and asked her if she wanted to meet up to with

a view to joining the practice.

And it's funny because she looked up the practice online and the the photo

on the from the street view was when it was very,

very run down. And she looked at it and thought,

and she's told me this story. She's like,

what the heck is that? Like she thought,

look, I know Michael, I'll go out and have a chat with him,

you know, I'll see what he wants.

And then but she got there, but

the it hadn't been updated online what it then looked like.

So the time she got there, we'd just finished off the la the first round

of renovations. So she joked afterwards about the fact that,

you know, she'd relied on the photo that was online at the time.

She never would have come out.

But thankfully she sort of thought,

at least I'll meet with the guy.

By the time she came out she's like,

wow, actually this is really nice,

you know and so we we joked about it Ha ha. down the track. But she was on I think she came on board a year,

year and a half into my tenure journey.

So she was pretty early on and

Okay. Yeah, so that's kind of what when she joined,

she she joined towards the start.

So give us a little bit of insight into what that growth curve looked like.

I imagine it was probably a little bit exponential.

You started with about five staff,

two clinicians, Mm.

eventually grew to over thirty staff and ten Mm. clinicians. e either, you know,

employee count or revenue or Yeah. g give us an idea of what that growth curve looked like. Yeah. So How how long did it take to grow how much?

Sure. So over the course of the 10 years,

we grew compounding at eighteen percent a year,

year on year on year on year, which for a mature business is very,

very high. You know, when you talk like you Yeah. know, dentistry, it's very mature.

Everyone does this has the same tools,

the same equipment. You know, you can't truly innovate in dentistry because

as soon as you do, someone else can do it too,

right? So yeah, over the but but it wasn't eighteen percent year after year.

There were some years and it was thirty,

thirty-five percent, and there were some that were a bit more like

say during COVID when

It wasn't very much at all there.

but we had probably a couple of very,

very large runs, I guess, on it where,

you know, I think years two, three,

four maybe were were very big years.

And then I think years seven and eight were also very,

very big ones when we'd sort of grow it,

you thirty-five, forty percent over the course of the year.

and that would that's the easy part,

you know, when when you've got the wind at your back and things

are going really well, it's it's you just kinda gotta hang on and enjoy the ride.

So yeah, it was it was very

fast growth. you know, it it felt like we 'cause initially we

did one renovation on the existing building.

I thought that would do me. I thought that would do,

you know, it was going to grow to we we started off with two dental chairs

and when I sold, we had ten.

So ten dental chairs. So in the in the one facility.

So we we grew a lot. and it was it just it always felt we became known

as the ever growing dental practice.

You know, anytime you t wal you there'd be something else happening there.

So yeah, it was it was ten years of growth.

Really? It di we just didn't stop.

There was no moment when we sort of weren't always pushing at the edges

to see how far we could push it.

was there anything or maybe any mistake that you made that delayed that growth

at any point?

I think so something my practice manager suggested,

I I was always looking at what had happened.

So I was always looking at our growth rate of of money in the bank and

and what had and and I wasn't doing forecasts.

And something that she suggested that really helped was she said,

you know, Michael, you you really should do some forecasting on on what future years

will look like, not just get the spreadsheets and what's happened.

And that was a really powerful tool to kind of figure out,

okay, look, here's where we're at.

If we grow it, you know.

10%, 15%, 20%, or 30% a year.

Here's what it's going to look like over the next one,

two, three, four, five years. And it gave us something to work towards.

So I think if I'd pulled that lever earlier,

that might have helped if I'd done projections going forwards and then given

us a goal. Whereas instead I was enjoying the ride,

we're going well, but I was just focused on,

I was, you know, kind of sitting in the back of the car looking back at

the road of everything that we'd done.

I was, and she was more looking forward at what's to come.

So I think if I was to do it again,

I would just I would have yeah, taken d taken her lead earlier and and and l

done projections earlier and and sort of looked at what the growth rate could look

like and kind of when you see those hockey stick curves going up,

it starts to give you something to work for and you make nice Excel spreadsheets

or whatever else and and you know,

different colours and things and and and it it's you know,

they're they're they're good looking things too and you start to work towards that.

So That would probably be the thing I think rather than just focus on

the doing and what's happened and looking at tracking,

you know, what this month was like compared to last month or the same month last

year, is actually to kind of give some thought to well,

what do I want this month in twelve months to be in twenty four months

and and thirty and you know, two,

three, four, four out to five years.

So that that would probably be the thing.

I think I'd spend more time on the projections,

thinking forward rather than just thinking about the now or what we've done.

man, that's some good advice. That's something I I never quite clicked over that.

I was I was Mm. always afraid of projecting too much and looking at more what was behind me.

So Mm.

were there one or two things you did that you feel like really fueled your growth

or maybe distinguished you from Yeah. some of the other dental practices in your area?

Yeah, a few. So I I I figured out Google reviews early on.

So they were massive, right? So I think that very early on I could see

how huge they were going to be and that it used to be word of mouth

and then it became word of thumb.

So instead of asking your neighbor who they go to see as a dentist,

you'd go online and scroll through and and use your thumb to figure it out.

So I pushed those really hard.

So we had more five star reviews than anyone else in Adelaide as a dental practice.

And when I sold, we had 400 plus five star reviews at an average of five point zero.

So not only did we have a lot of five stars,

we had very, very few low reviews as well.

So that was a powerful thing. So reviews absolutely,

I think they sort of underpinned our growth.

very much so. We also tried to do Erick,

you know, new and innov innovative patient appreciation things as well that other

practices weren't doing. So

We introduced something called a patient appreciation day where we opened

up the practice on a Saturday and we put on it was it was geared more towards

families. We had live music, we had a coffee cart,

food, we had face painting and balloon animals and things and and

we invited all the patients to come along and it was all for free.

So that was something that gave our patients a story.

They gave it it told us it said something about us as well.

so we started doing that each year.

So that was that proved really popular.

another thing we did was we

I read Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara,

and which is he wrote it's an amazing book. yeah. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, He's an incredible man, but yeah, a a great book.

100%. And we introduced this program called Sparks.

And the idea with Sparks is that the it it lit up,

it sparked us and it sparked the patients when they'd get one.

So if a patient came in, say and they said,

something was happening in their lives.

50 patients in a year for with a budget of $50 each,

we'd we'd get them something related to what they said.

So we had a patient who just got her Australian citizenship.

So we bought her like a an Australian flag and a fluffy kangaroo and like some

Tim Tams and some Vegemite and those sorts of things,

packaged them up and gave them to her.

We had a patient who was going to Hawaii.

So we bought him a nice beach towel,

we bought him some nice sunscreen and a lonely planet guide to Hawaii.

And we packaged it up and delivered these things.

And and they were different. You know,

no other dental packages were doing that.

and it really again it gave our patients a story to to tell.

We had a patient who likes French cooking,

so we got a nice apron and a French cookbook and again packaged them all

up and and delivered them, Hang delivered them.

And and these are, you know, it wasn't every patient,

but you know, we had 50 ambassadors who'd gotten one of these sparks in in yeah,

on their front door from us and they loved it and they'd tell their friends

and family. So we tried to think outside.

So we did do things that others weren't doing,

and to do, you know, things that

showed our patients that we're thinking of them,

that we listened to them and that we valued them.

that's really cool. That's a a great program.

W what mistake did you make during the process of building your business that cost

you the most money?

Mm. I think bad hires are costly, you know,

and I think so, you know, hiring the wrong people and putting the wrong people

in the wrong positions, you know.

And I think that things like I made the mistake of thinking as

a manager of something. So say if you're managing certain area of the the business,

that I would put the manager as the person who is best at that thing when

I should have hired the person who had the best managerial skills and

I got that wrong. So

to say if you for instance have a reception team,

you know, don't just put the best receptionist as manager,

put the person who's best at managing as the manager.

And and that was a big mistake that cost me time,

effort, money, and heartache, absolutely.

And realizing that, you know, i to manage someone if someone's gonna manage people,

they've got to be able to hold others accountable and they've got

to hold themselves accountable.

And if they can't do those two things,

they can't manage. You can't have someone

managing people or put people underneath someone if they can't hold themselves

accountable and hold others accountable.

It doesn't matter how good they are at the technical expertise,

they can be the best dentist or the best receptionist or

the best dental assistant. But if you're having them manage other people

and they can't actually do that in terms of lead them and manage them

and hold them everyone accountable,

then they're no good in that role.

They're better off just staying in the the role,

not not taking on the managerial responsibility.

So I think that was a big thing. It's like what's required of a manager

and realizing that the skill set is very different to what's actually

re required of the the the technical aspect of the job that they might

be managing for.

That's some good advice. I I made that same mistake a number of times and yeah, Yeah. It's a painful one. that's some good advice. There's good stuff there.

It's a painful one. You know, you you you you learn it,

you know, slowly and you know,

I I kind of it took me a long time to figure that out.

that that that those two things are different,

you know. but yeah, now if I was going back,

I would would would hire for different things in those managerial roles rather than

just employ the person best at that thing because it did not at all translate

to the actual skill I was seeking.

Yeah.

Well, I wanna spend quite a bit of time here on your exit.

It sounds like you had a a Sure. very unique exit, and orchestrated it quite well.

Mm-hmm. but I I think you mentioned y you ran the business for about ten years

and did you say it was a a ten year buy out process or the the previous owner chose

to elect ten years for his final buyout.

W what was it? I mean you're you're just finally owning a hundred percent

of the business and buying out the previous owner at the same time that you're

negotiating a sale. What instigated that sale?

What what made you decide to sell it?

Yeah, I I I woke up one day, Erick,

and I and I just had enough. Like it just it was no longer fun anymore.

And I I was occupying it was occupying so much of my head's headspace that there

was room for nothing else. And I sort of thought I'd had it for ten years

and I thought, you know, if the next ten years I don't want the next ten years

to be like the last ten years,

you know, I kind of wanted a bit of a break and I wanted to

occupy my mind with something else.

So that was sort of what it came on very quickly.

You know, it wasn't part of the plan.

I didn't set out to to sell at the start of I sold it twelve months ago.

So in September last year in 2025.

But at the start of 2025 I didn't think,

okay, I'm gonna go sell I just wanted a really relaxed,

easy year. And in the end it was sort of a very tumultuous year when when

you know big Yeah. events happened of the sale. So but I basically

I just started to think about the possibility of selling and the more

I thought about it, the more it grew legs and became not just an option,

but the thing I wanted to do. So I wanted to see what else is out there

in life and and I and I just had enough.

I sort of felt the juice wasn't worth the squeeze anymore and I felt like

I'd given it everything I possibly had and it had given me,

you know, everything it had to give me.

So it was sort of there was nothing left in the tank really.

And yeah, with all of that said,

I thought it it's time to

Yeah, to pull the pin and and and and and put it on the market.

W at what point in time did you kind of become aware of w what the business might

be worth? i Yeah. I mean w when you started feeling burnt out and decided you wanted

to try something else, did you have any idea what it might be worth?

I had a look, did I have an idea of what it was worth?

I had ideas on what it could be worth,

but I didn't know the exact price,

no. So I think my view was that the the the market sets the rate,

not me. I had a number I needed just I couldn't sell it for less than

a certain number because you know the debt it wouldn't cover the debt,

right? So I I I wasn't gonna sell it as a fire sale,

that's for sure. So I had

The different gradients I had to figure I need to I I can't sell up

for less than this, otherwise I'll be burning through cash.

If I get this, that'd be nice.

If I get this, it'd be really nice.

And anything above that is a bonus.

So I kind of had some some broad markers in my head of of what that would look like

and what I needed, what I wanted,

and and what would be lovely to get.

but the actual process of selling,

you know, when it came, I I approached them and I said,

look, I I I I

private equity firms and there were seven of them and and I I called them

all up and actually I didn't call one of them because I just didn't trust them.

So I called up six of them and two of them had merged so that took it

to five and then one of them sort of said we had a long chat and then

he kind of said look get office and the others and come back to me.

And I thought look if they're all going to come and fly in and and visit

and have a look through then I'm not gonna give you last say or priority.

Like you can get your backside here and look through.

So There were four private equity firms that that that visited on site that that looked

through that I gave the information memorandum to that I gave the figures

to for them to to review and put their best offering.

And a lot of them, you know, they're gonna ask,

look, what do you want for it?

And and and my response was, Look,

you know, the market sets the rate,

not me. So I'm actually doing you a disservice if I put a figure on it.

So if I put a figure on it and it's crazy high,

then it doesn't mean anything,

right? It's silly, you know. But by the same token,

if I give you a figure and

turns out it it's worth more and everyone else bids more and you bid

a little bit more than what I said.

I'm again doing you a disservice because you're gonna lose.

You know, the others will bid what it's worth and you're gonna bid based

on what I say and you're gonna lose out.

So I said, so I didn't give them a number.

I didn't say, look, I want this much for it.

I said the market will set the rate.

You know, it's a competitive process.

and so yeah, sharpen your pencils,

get your best offering and and that's how I ran it.

when you were building the practice did did you have an idea to build

and sell early on or were you just growing the business that you owned?

When did this idea of you know,

I'm building something that someday could be worth significantly more,

when Mm. when did that really become part of your long term plan? Well, I read Built to Sell very early,

which is a great book, and it basically sets out the idea of,

you know, have a business that's always always ready to sell.

So even though I didn't have a view to sell,

I was always interested in selling and I was interested in what that looked like.

And I was interested in in in in making sure that the business was was

in a sellable position and and able to be sold.

So

Even though it wasn't forefront of mind,

I think that I'd ask the people who were in the business of buying dental practices

or in or brokers and say, look,

what makes a what makes a highly profitable and highly sellable business?

You know, what sorts of things should I be trying to do?

So right from the start, I was trying to position it in such a way that if I,

you know, you basically, end of the day,

you either walk away from the business,

you you carry it out in a box if you die,

or you sell. And you know, of those three,

the only one I wanted was the last one,

right? So if you're gonna sell,

you might as well maximize the value.

So if you're gonna maximize the value,

you might as well think about it at the start and plan for it and not wait till

the end and then start to think about how to fit you know,

what it's gonna be worth and how to maximize that.

So I I always had it the back of my mind,

but not with a specific view to sell,

but more so just, you know, just get it in place,

really. And and I'm glad I did because when it came time to sell,

it turned out, yeah, it was it was very sellable and and I'd done

all the right things.

man. So w what were some of those things?

maybe not specific to dentistry,

but just a business in general. Mm, totally.

What are the things you found that made it more sellable,

more appealing, or maybe commanded a a higher multiple,

higher valuation?

Yep. Reduce key person dependency.

Super important. Okay. So, you know,

if you if you're buying a business,

it's it's basically a a multiple times by your profit.

So and the multiple is largely determined by,

you know, the expected future earnings,

right? So if you want that multiple to be high,

you want to reduce the risk for any prospective buyer.

So for me, I wanted to make sure that the business didn't rely on any one person,

including me, so I could present a case to the prospective buyers that

it was a turnkey solution. So I was able to successfully

tell them that because of the fact that I'd I'd been able to achieve that

and and could demonstrate that.

So there was no clinician at that practice who generated more than seventeen percent

of the total revenue of the practice.

So instead of say one person being the the moneymaker or the rainmaker

and billing forty percent or fifty percent and they think,

right, well there's a key person risk here,

instead if no one's billing more than seventeen percent,

it takes that off the table. So it means that you know to prospective buyers

it becomes a whole lot more

attractive to them because you it lacks the key person dependence.

So for anyone listening, that's a very specific thing is you want to make sure,

you know, we've all got a bit of an ego.

And I think that, you know, if if if being the most important person

in the business and having the business everything run through you,

it's great for your ego, but I say it's bad for your bank account when

it comes time to sell. So you kind of need to pull your ego away

and recognize if you're serious about making money and and selling this thing

at the end, then you've really got to,

you know, Forget about that and create a business that doesn't rely on you or

any one person in order to maximize the enterprise value.

So y you went to private equity,

they didn't come to you. you Mm-hmm. Correct.

managed this sale by yourself without a broker or anything,

and you pulled it Mm-hmm. off in eighty-one days. What knowledge did you gain and how did you gain that

to be able to do that without a a broker or a consultant on your side?

How how did you know how to negotiate with these large private equity firms? Look

I I I think I I enjoy negotiating and I and and I kind of it's fun.

I like it. And and look, you gotta be careful because if you don't know what you're

doing, what if you're not confident doing it,

you shouldn't be doing it right.

But I was that was the the language that I spoke.

So yes, I was a dentist, but I was a business owner first and foremost,

so I could communicate with them

with a business head and know exactly what they were talking about because

I'd done the work, you know, like I I knew and understood business.

It wasn't that I've been doing dentistry my whole life and hadn't given

a thought to to a business and then trying to negotiate with someone who's

you know and be way overmatched.

I I knew what I was doing and I knew how to negotiate.

And again, you know, board games growing up,

like you you get to negotiate lots and and figure that out and play people

off against each other sometimes and those sorts of things.

So I I just felt like I could do it and I felt confident doing it.

I think that, you know, it's funny,

reading all those books behind me and things like that,

when it came time to sell, I didn't learn anything specifically new.

What I learnt was though that everything I thought the maid that

I'd been taught that I'd read up as being what makes a business highly sellable,

it's right. Like it really just franked what I'd already thought

and what I'd discovered that there wasn't anything new I learned.

It really just vindicated and validated,

I suppose, everything that I'd

learned in advance that it does turn out that all those things matter

and all those things that I thought made a vi business valuable and and sellable,

turns out they're right. So it really just validated everything

I'd learned previously rather than any big new learnings there.

I didn't learn a whole lot during the sale process necessarily.

I was expecting to. I thought this is a whole new kettle of fish,

but in fact it was just, you know,

it just validated everything else I'd done,

really. And and and and yeah, that's kind of what I what I got out of it,

I suppose.

I I was in a d a very different industry,

but my experience with private equity,

they would come in with some really generic kind of ballpark multiples and Mm-hmm. wanted to lock down kind of a a a a non compete.

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I'm I'm drawing a blank. There's another word I'm looking for,

but basically y you know, you're not allowed to negotiate with anybody else while Yeah. Exclusivity you're negotiating with them.

periods. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I there you go. Yep. sign an exclusivity agreement and yeah. i did you get some pushback when you went to them with your plan of,

hey, I'm coming to five of you,

make me an offer, I'm gonna pick the best one. Yeah. You

you you nailed it, Erick. So when you,

you know, when you're buying something,

you wanna you wanna work one on one with them.

You don't want them talking to anyone else.

And when you're selling them, you want the opposite.

You want as much competitive tension as possible,

right? So you're coming at it from completely different lenses,

right? And and the last thing they want is the fact that is for me

to be having heaps of people, you know,

having other parties come through.

So I and I let them knew that.

I wasn't shy and saying, Hey, this is a competitive process,

you know, today it's you, tomorrow it'll be your competitor,

and the day after that'll be someone else.

So What how it basically worked from my end is I ran it like a race.

So I oversaw the whole thing and and and I had all the private equity firms that

came through that they they came through and they all got the same figures

and I let them know that you're all getting the same information on which

you know this is gonna be a fair fair fight.

you and they all came through within a couple of weeks of each other.

And I gave them all the same deadline to get their best offers through to me by.

So and I said to them, you know, you can have the same inform, like I'm not changing this around,

you've got the same stuff. So

know, whoever has the the best price in terms is gonna be the the

the the the winner. And once they so once you figure that out,

once then you then negotiate, there's a bit of back and forth.

Once you commit to one, then what will you do is then you do enter into

an exclusivity period. So you sign a non binding indicative offer and then you

They then expect you because they do a very,

very deep dive at that point. So all the figures in the top line financials,

they need they then go through your bank account statements and all those things

to make sure, hey, you've said this much has hit the bank account.

We need to check that. And and and I honored that.

So I I, you know, the what the exclusivity period,

I absolutely, you know, I I ceased negotiating with others.

I let them know. I said, Hey, look,

you know, I'm sorry you've missed out.

Look, if if things circumstances change,

I'll come back to you. But I'm gonna see this through with this other party

and long as long as they honor that,

then I'm gonna, you know. That'll be it. you know, I didn't keep trying to play games with lots of them.

I thought, you know, I want to have one crack at it and do it properly

and and and act in good faith.

And I did. So I I signed that once I'd agreed to the terms and the price,

I signed the ex the non binding indicative offer and the exclusivity period.

I understood from there in why they needed it because then they were gonna spend

a lot of time and money going through the figures and they didn't wanna yeah. you know, that seemed fair.

It seemed reasonable and I understood why they did that.

But I also said to them with the the the the offer,

I said, Look, it can't move from that number.

I said, I don't want you to condition me down,

you know, like you you this is what it says and and don't come back to me saying,

no, it's gonna be less. And they said,

We've only ever done that once,

and that was when someone had said that they'd paid their wife something

for something that she hadn't done as part of the dental practice thing.

I said, I totally get that. If you find,

you know, fraud, then yeah, that's a totally different thing.

But I said, The books are clean as a whistle.

Everyone who says that they

I paid for something, it's all legitimate.

There's nothing in there. There were no creepy crawlies in the books.

And they did. They wanted it. The price that they they offered was was what

it what the that I signed up for was what what it ended up being.

And that was fair. That was fair.

So yeah, but you're quite right.

The buyers, they don't want to compete.

They want to they you order themselves.

And and as the seller, I was the opposite.

If you've got a good a good business,

you want to yeah, get as many people interested as you can.

Yeah, w we ended up going through more of a an internal or private sale route,

but at one point in time I was working with a broker and I remember

he had there were three or four private equity firms we were kind of talking

to and negotiating with and one of them came in with a conditional offer

and the broker called and said,

Okay, well, you know, these other firms are working on an offer.

Do you wanna pursue this one with this firm or do you wanna get offers from these

other three? And I said, Yes.

Yeah.

That that's not an either or question. Good goal. No that's it. Like yeah, yeah, we're gonna do yes on bolt.

We're gonna do bolt. So Hundred percent, keeping coming in,

the more absolutely. So no I get it.

It's it's like, yep, you yeah, everyone can have a bite of cherry.

So yeah, if you're yeah, I I I was of the same view.

Yeah. So that diligence period you talked about diving into financials

and y you said when you were kind of pitching the private equity,

you didn't learn as much you as you thought you were gonna learn.

for me anyway, I learned a lot through that diligence period.

They asked questions that I had never asked before.

they Interesting. they dug into stuff that I didn't even know existed.

did Yeah. you have a similar experience?

Were there any surprises during that diligence period?

Look, there were certain things, so I still had my account and my bookkeepers' help.

So, you that they they got some of the financial things to them,

absolutely. So I didn't do that aspect myself.

What I what was curious was part of my considerations,

Erick, was who can close the deal,

right? So they can offer you something,

but who gets to completion? Because if they don't get to completion,

you don't get the money. And you can pick out any number you want.

And I knew the the group that I went with that they they'd bought practices before.

I knew that they

get to the end and actually do that and that counted for something.

It counted for a lot. So their due diligence was rigorous.

They were all rigorous, but it wasn't some of them I'd say were onerous.

You know, like looking at what some of them wanted when they'd put

in their offers and then I'd say,

well what what were the due diligence and and they were wanting a like

an incredible amount of stuff that would have taken,

you know, a whole lot more time to get them.

So and and it seemed to me, as I said,

it didn't seem

Rigorous is fine, but onerous it seemed like it was over the top.

So, whereas the the firm I went with,

th they they absolutely they got a lot of detail,

they got a lot of documents and a lot of stuff,

but I I knew that they could get to the end and I thought that what they were asking

for was fair and reasonable. whereas some of them,

yeah, it was, you know, yeah, it was crazy what they what they were after.

So I think I probably was fortunate in that sense to to work with a group that

y yeah, it was it was

Fair and reasonable when I knew they could get to the end,

which is really important. So that was a that was a key consideration for me.

It wasn't just the price or the terms,

it was who do I know of these groups has has a track history of actually closing

the sale. and that that became a consideration for me,

absolutely. man. I I wish I would have talked to you before I entered that process.

I was I was very, very happy with the end result and the the price we

got and how the sale went, but I had a lot more than eighty one days in it and Yep. had to walk through some of those somewhat onerous experiences first.

So

think I was the outlier.

You know, eighty one days is unusual,

but I was pushing pretty hard to to to get it to the end,

that's for sure.

man. So you decided you wanted the sale.

You move really fast. Select a buyer.

You're closing in eighty-one days.

Walk me through the emotions of that process.

W was it a difficult decision?

You said you kind of woke up and realized you were tired,

you were done, you just wanted to wanted to do something else.

Mm-hmm. Did you wrestle with that decision or was that a pretty immediate decision?

It was pretty immediate, you know,

like my wife I remember chatting to with my wife about it and she made

the comment like sh she was a little bit surprised that I never second guessed

myself. I think she thought that I was gonna pull out or or or some

of those early discussions. I think she thought that maybe I was gonna

get cold feet. Whereas actually it was the opposite.

The more that I went down that path,

the more that I investigated it,

the more I wanted to do it. So

I I I dissociated from it very quickly and and the way,

you know, it's interesting, Erick,

that the the prospective buyers,

you know, they want to go they ask the same thing,

like how are you gonna feel emotionally giving this up?

And and my view was I said, Look,

you know, if if you've got if I do up an e you know,

a car, a not really nice vintage car,

I I said, if I sell it and you wanna pull it apart for parts,

I said, It's yours, you can do what you want with it.

I said, It's the same thing with this,

that, you know, I I

I kind of was pretty transactional about it in the end,

to be honest. I thought look when I sell,

you know, if you want to change the name of the practice or do it that's up to you,

you know. So I I was able to negotiate not just the you know,

but I negotiated with no earnout,

no retention period, nothing. So no clawbacks.

So it meant that it was a walk in,

walk out and I was quite content to to let it go,

you know, like once that money hit the bank account it was theirs and and

I was done with it, you know, I'd I'd had a had a you know,

thriving ten years there and it had,

you know, entertained me a lot,

but I didn't have mixed emotions.

You know, I didn't find that I had I I read that like 75% of people

who sell their business regret it.

And I I definitely wasn't one of those.

And and and the whole time belonged,

you know, as soon as I started thinking about selling,

every day after, I was more inclined to do it.

I never kind of, yeah, never went back on it.

That's awesome. Yeah. Well y you said your excitement kind of accelerated as you went through the process.

what was it that you learned or what was it that you were thinking about that

got you more excited about the sale?

Think I was just ready to to I was ready just to do something else with my life.

Like it was interesting, I didn't have a next thing to jump into.

And I think a lot of people they say,

you know, you've got to know what you're gonna do next,

and those sorts of things. And I didn't.

But I I think I was excited by the the the idea of waking up and and

not checking my phone to see, you know,

who's sick, who's late, who's not coming in.

You know, I really I wanted to to rid myself of all those things.

And you know, I think that when you start off

You know, I think I'm a builder by nature and you start off and you're building

a practice and you're building a culture and you're building an internet

and you're doing two big renovations in a really literal sense and you build

it and you build it and you build it.

And then, you know, it's kind of done.

And then what you're gonna do is you end up just fixing stuff.

And and fixing stuff is far less fun than what building stuff is,

you know. So and I found that much less rewarding,

the the fixing aspect. So I I'd I'd stopped building and and then as soon

as I stopped building it it just became unenjoyable.

You know, like I I I wasn't enjoying the the fixing aspect or having people knock

on my door and tell they were unhappy about this,

that or something else. So yeah,

as as it went on, I was I was very keen to to be done with it and and to sell.

So I think the thing that was was moving me,

you know, the thing that was sort of pulling me along was just the idea

of waking up and and having my day as my own and not having to worry about,

you know, thirty five staff and and and and and the the myriad things that,

you know, they they they

that that might hit my inbox or or Slack or or or text message.

I I feel like you're reading my mail here.

I I can relate so closely to what you're saying.

that's not what I hear from a lot of business owners that have sold their

businesses. So w what about during the that eighty one day period,

negotiating with these private equity firms,

going through diligence. I imagine i there were probably a couple moments where,

you know, the the deal was close to falling apart or you had to Yeah. had to get stuff together.

W was it an emotional roller coaster?

What was that process like?

It was pretty good. There was there was only one moment when I I got a

bit tense and that was just about it was about the the the the

the cabinetry of the building and who owns that.

So, you know, we kind of went back and forth about that,

whether that's included in the sale or not,

because it's very expensive. And but we sorted it out,

you know. I think it was about a two hour thing between but but that

was it wasn't heated, but it was the only sort of point where it was like,

look, you know, we kind of hit a snag that neither of us had anticipated.

But Yeah, within two hours we'd sorted it out.

So I I I think it helped that both parties were genuinely negotiating in good faith.

Both parties were trying to get to the end.

Both parties are trying to help the other.

I could s you know, they wanted to buy it,

I wanted to sell it. And it it was fairly sh you know,

it was as straightforward as it could be,

I guess. And then again, it's probably a testament to the group that I went with,

the fact that they knew what they were doing,

you know. And I think that it's interesting when you you know,

private equity firms, they're professional buyers,

it's what they do. You know, so it it you're not dealing with a mum and dad who are you know,

it it's there's seven steps to try and,

you know, it takes a week just to get a return phone call and things like they're

in the business of buying businesses.

So I think dealing with them as professional buyers probably helped things too,

because they knew what they needed.

They knew what they were after,

they knew what the right answers were and they knew what the wrong answers were,

and and everything kind of fit into that you know,

to that paradigm. So it it there wasn't a whole lot during the negotiations,

during the the the the the actual

due diligence and things. probably just,

you know, what to tell staff and how how how and when to tell staff

was definitely something that was weighing on my mind,

that I had to to figure out how to deal with.

I guess that'd probably be the only thing that I had to to sort of navigate.

That I wasn't expecting, yeah. U was it in

you mentioned, yeah, going to a sophisticated buyer,

someone that does this for a living. Mm. Hundred percent. They buy and sell businesses

every day. W was that a little bit intimidating,

walking in as somebody who bought a business and is now selling their first

one and in engaging with people that do that every day?

Yeah, it's really interesting.

Look, I think I never visited them.

So they all flew in from the east coast of Australia and visited me.

So I suppose I was lucky in that sense that I was on my own my home turf,

you know, like they came to visit me and they all had suits and looked nice

and they knew what they were doing.

But maybe they had a slight, you know,

mental advantage in the sense of,

you know, they were on my patch of dirt,

I wasn't on theirs. So that that might have been something there.

I I think like again,

I I think Even though I'm a dentist, I I I saw myself as a business owner and and

I think that I I'd done the work,

you know, when you read that many jolly books and you read that many podcasts

and things, like I I felt like I was on equal footing with them.

I didn't feel like I was coming in as a you know,

just with a punch's chance. I felt like I knew,

you know, I I'd done my research and I knew what they wanted and I knew

I could talk the language and I could speak to them and I and I knew what when

I was saying something, whether you know it was BS and I knew what they were saying.

Like I I kinda knew what they wanted too and I think they understood that too.

Like I could talk in terms of what they wanted and I could understand,

you know, risk from their point of view and all and all those sorts of things.

So I think they probably I hope they appreciated that that that that I

was a bit of a mature minded seller and and was practical with it and came

to it through a business lens rather than through an emotional lens specifically

of it being my life's work and having to part with that.

I think that, you know, as professional buyers,

they

they are attuned to the emotional aspect of someone selling up selling their life's

work and I kind of probably had less of that,

I suppose, because I could see it from their perspective going,

This is business and you know,

there's there's rules in business and there's there's conventions and you've

got to do the right thing. I get that.

But but I I I understood it from their point of view and and I wasn't going

to get hung up on the emotional side of things.

I I can very practically see, you know,

when they're parting with money for it that they need to get a return,

they need to be sure of things and I got it,

you know, like I understood that.

the f you know, my blood, sweat and tears ultimately was of little consequence

to them in a practical sense and and that's fair enough.

I they've just got to run their you know,

run their eye over the the numbers and and the f the the business and things.

So I think that probably helped too that I I wasn't too caught up in

the emotion of it and I was happy just to get down to business and and flesh it out.

Do you think it helped that you were a second generation owner?

That that you weren't the the founder of the business?

Did that help you come Yeah. in with more of a a business mindset?

It it's interesting. Yeah, and it's a really good question.

'Cause I mean, on one hand, you really built the business.

You know, it became That's the yours. It was your personality.

There wasn't much there when you started. Totally. But yet you you bought it as a business venture. Yeah. Totally. It wasn't y you know, you didn't

birth it. No. No, you're right, Erick. That's exactly right.

There's two counterpoints there,

you know, like two arguments of okay,

it wasn't you didn't start the business from scratch,

but then also, you know, what it ended with and what I bought were

two completely different things.

So even though I you know, I I technically didn't didn't start it from scratch,

but I did I bought not much more than scratch,

I suppose. So I think you might be right. Ha ha. I think you know that I think that's fair.

I think that it it's if if I'd

Being there at the very, very,

very start, maybe that would have had a bit more.

I need to think about that more.

That's a really good question, Erick. You've hit me with a hit me between the eyes with a good one.

It's yeah, I need to think about that more if I'd started from scratch.

I reckon I would have. Yeah. I think i if I'd been there at the very,

very start and had done the whole thing from zero,

I reckon that might have had more more of an effect.

But having said that, as I said,

you know, it wasn't like I just scaled it for a bit and then unsold it.

Like I'd I'd overseen, you know,

90% of the growth that it had.

So

yeah, but so probably a bit of both.

I know a a big deal here is that it was a a walk in,

walk out sale, especially Yeah. with private equity. It's common to have a a high level of earnout or a continuing Finally. role in that transition. w was that a stipulation you walked in with?

Is that something that you negotiated?

w where did that idea come from?

Yeah, look look, I I was very clear from the outset and I and I made

the the point to them about the conditions of sale and and one of those

was that it was going to be a a walk in,

walk out. And I again that the language of business,

I knew from their end, I said to them,

Look, I understand risk. And I understand when you're buying a business that

you need to protect against risk.

I said, I get it. I totally understand.

I said and I understand ordinarily why you retain the the key

Decision maker with a key dentist for a period of three or five years.

So if I was in your shoes, I'd do the same thing.

I said, however, normally when you're doing that,

that person is generating 30, 40% of the revenue.

I said, so that's why you do it.

In my case, I generate 0.6%. So I said,

so with that in mind, I said, you don't need to keep me.

You know, like I'm not, I'm not the key moneymaker here.

that's kind of how I positioned it.

And I kind of said to them jokingly,

I said, look.

You know, anyone who can turn the practice of possums on the walls to to what

it is now, I said, Like, if you keep me around,

I said, I'm just gonna be a thorn on your side.

I'm always gonna think I can do it better than what you can.

And I sort of said it with a straight face,

but also s you know, half jokingly.

And I said, So, you know, you want some clear air,

you want me long gone, you don't want me sticking around,

you wanna have it all for yourself.

And and I kinda said, And that's you know,

it actually I'm not saying you know,

that no retention period just for me.

I'm saying it for you too, 'cause trust me,

you d you know, you know

You don't want me here, you know,

once and you need some clear air, Yeah. you need the big guy gone and

and and they got it and they honored that.

So of the three offers I had, two of them were exactly that.

And one of them was ninety-five percent up front and then five percent like

a couple of months later, but not depending on any specific,

you know, it was basically I just had to stick around for a day or two a week

for a couple of months, but it wasn't,

you know, whether I got paid that or not wasn't going to be determined by you know,

the profitability of the practice.

So two of them

completely honored it and the third one did everything but honour it completely,

you know, like I think it was a fairly nominal retention for not very long.

but I think, you know, if you if you can kind of any negotiation,

you know, if you can frame it in a certain way,

it helps. You know, and I think that I from the outset framed it and kind

of set it down one course. So then they couldn't kind of,

you know, couldn't easily come back and try and have me sta stick around

for three or five years when I sort of said,

Hey, we we're going left, not right.

It would have been hard for them to to change it.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like you gave up some valuation because of that

or were you able to frame it in such a way that, No. No. No. I was very, no? That's great. very happy with the sale price. Yeah.

So no, I I hear what you're saying and quite possibly,

right? Like totally that could have been on the cards where look,

if I'd hadn't been so hard with that,

would I have got but but no, so I know it's the industry norms,

I know what the valuations normally like the the the multiple is and

and ours was outside of that and and comfortably so.

So

Nor normally, yeah, it's absolutely what you're saying is a fair question of look,

did you leave a bit of money on the table?

And and and truthfully I would have.

Like it was a competitive process.

They were all very closely bound.

Like they were all the offers within five percent of each other,

right? So it wasn't that one offered and just blew the others out of the water.

But if they were all bound lower and they said,

look, we can't pay you quite as much because you're not wanting to stick around,

then I would have caught that on the chin and accepted it.

But I think, you know, in fairness as well,

because what I was saying was accurate.

Like it wasn't just,

I wasn't throwing the toys out of the cot and saying I don't want to stick around.

I excuse me, I I said I don't want to,

you know, I won't be sticking around,

but there's good reason for it because it's a turnkey business and

you don't need me. That's why.

So it it wasn't I've had a gut full,

I'm out of here. It was, it doesn't need me.

So I should still get full, full value for the business because,

you know, you can just I said the functions that I'm doing are what you're gonna

be doing, you know, like I'm not critical to the actual operations of it.

So I I think I can relate and understand closely,

but for our listener that's maybe a young business owner or somebody that's just

wondering w why the opposition to sticking around a retention period

or especially in the case that you could have gotten a a better

multiple. You said that in that case,

you know, you would have just taken it and it is what it is.

why were you so insistent on walking out rather than sticking around even

if it meant more money?

Maybe I'm unemployable. I'm not sure.

But yeah, look, I think I I think I've never heard of anyone who

has stuck around for the retention period who's enjoyed it.

Every single person I know who's who's done it regrets it,

right? So I've always kind of I I I I'm everything I do is I'm I'm an outlier.

Like everything I do is a a long way from,

you know, it's a hundred percent of something,

right? And zero percent of something else.

So I always sort of held the view when I was a business owner that

I'm either a hundred percent in or I'm zero percent in.

Like there is no one foot of each camp.

In the same way I thought when I sell,

I said, you know, I'm not gonna sell parcels of it and sell to a little

bit to you and a little bit to this person.

I said, it's gonna be sold as you know,

I'm gonna sell a hundred percent and then when I'm sell the hundred percent,

then I'm a hundred percent out.

You know, I I I'm yeah, I'm not very good at doing things in impartial measures.

So I think it was just sort of like an underlying belief in my head that

I'd always had that, you know.

I I just thought when I'm doing this,

I'm gonna give them my absolute all.

But then when I'm not doing it,

like if I'm not in complete control,

I don't want any sense of having to to stick around either.

So it's just what's that comfortably with me.

Everyone's different, and if you can find an arrangement where you're happy

to stick around and they're happy and it goes really well,

happy days, but I don't know anyone who has done that,

who's been thrilled with the result,

to tell you the truth. They tend to and and and often you don't have a choice in it,

right? Like often

someone's buying your business that that they need to have,

particularly if you are a crucial person with the organization,

that they they need to retain you.

but I was fortunate in how I set it up that I was able to extricate myself

and and and mount that case for why I was yeah sort of not not needed

and why it was a turnkey business.

And yeah, for me I'm glad I did.

Okay. Well well, I might be your first then.

I did include a really? Awesome. That's cool.

it it we set it up structurally very minimal though.

I I was pretty opposed to an earnout.

I see kind of like you said, you know,

I own a hundred percent, I'm in control,

and I'm selling a hundred percent,

you're gonna be in control. I don't want my payment to be determined

by the business decisions you make.

If if you buy it and Highly. run it into the ground, why are you paying me less? A hundred percent.

so I I was very

opposed to the earnout. but we ended up going with I agreed to stick around

for a year kind of in strictly an advisory consultant capacity. Yeah, cool. Yeah.

and that's worked really well.

I'm I'm good friends with the new owners. That's weakened. we had the business set up where I I was not doing much of the work myself,

but I I still had very much had my fingers in running it.

So they did kind of step into the role that I was filling and I've just kind of been

over their shoulder watching and helping and it's been fun.

It rather than going That's cool. from working eighty hours a week, Yeah, yeah. working my butt off, running like crazy to what do we do now?

I I still have a place to go every day.

I Highly. still go to the office and hang out,

but I have a lot more freedom.

I have a lot less stress and it's kinda fun to go to the office

and see what's happening instead Good. of like, gosh, what fresh hell are we dealing with today?

You know Hundred percent. Well, I'm glad that there you go,

that's one and I think something you hit on there which is interesting and I reckon maybe it's

almost a part of why it has gone well is is is the fact that like you said,

hey, if you step up the business,

why should I be on the hook? And I think I said something similar to them

as well as like, I'll hand you the keys to the Ferrari and it'll be purring.

I said, you know, if you if you crash it into a wall,

like why do I get punished for that?

You know, like that was my logic.

Like I can I can drive the thing,

but like if you buy it, you've got to you know,

I I If you sell your Ferrari and someone crashes it,

you shouldn't go, I can have some of my money back.

It's like, well, no, you crashed it.

So that was my logic Yeah.

too. Like, you know, I'm a good driver,

I can drive it. When you get the keys,

I expect you to be a good driver.

And if you're not, then you bear 100% of the responsibility for that.

And I kind of I said words to that effect as well for exactly like you said,

it's like if you run it into the ground,

like why why is my you know, bank balance going to go down?

Like, that's on you, you know.

So Yeah, any more than in advance.

You know, I can't blame them before I sell it for any downturn,

like that's on me and and afterwards it's on them.

So I agree and I think maybe maybe that's part of the reason Erick Wyatt worked

for you is the fact that, you know,

you you're able to yeah, arrange that.

So kudos to you for that.

Yeah, thank you. It it's been a good experience so far.

So That's awesome. you you mentioned that your first kind of hang up or maybe your only major hang

up was over the real estate. where did you land on that?

Did you maintain ownership of the real estate and lease it to the new owners, I was always gonna maintain other or did you sell that as well?

yes, the real estate was always they wanted me to keep it and I wanted to keep it.

It was more just the sp speci specifically okay.

the cabinetry inside the building.

So the building I owned, it was about yeah,

so it was very it was pretty minor, you know.

So like I was Okay. gonna own the build the so they they were gonna get the dental chairs,

absolutely, that's part of it.

But it was about a discussion as part of the business,

but it was a discussion about the cabinetry.

So that's what it came down to. Really? But no, I still own the building

and and they were really keen

That part of what they said was they said,

like, we want you to re we don't want to buy the building,

the the property, but we don't want you to sell it either.

Like we'd rather deal with you going forwards than someone else.

I said, That's fine. I said, Look,

you know, I I made clear as well,

you know, I want to retain this.

I'm not going to be selling it, which I'm not. And so yeah, they they had no interest in buying the property.

They wanted to buy the business and then so I've kept the property.

Well, y you mentioned that you didn't second guess yourself or have cold feet,

once you made the decision. There there wasn't a lot of roller coaster in the sale.

You kind of just got more excited and moved through.

What about like day zero? When you close and go home and you don't

go to work tomorrow.

Mm-hmm. Were there any emotions around that day?

Was it excitement, fear, trepidation,

mixed?

I'm just writing a LinkedIn article actually on the twelve months since.

So by the time this goes live,

I'll have written that. So but what I did so in in Shawshank Redemption,

there's a moment when Andy Dufresne,

when he gets through the pipe and he just stands in the in the rain

and he sticks his arms in the air like this.

And and I kinda did that, to be honest.

And there's a photo that my wife took that I'm gonna put on this LinkedIn post.

So I just felt thrilled. It felt like I'd escaped.

So, you know, I I felt a a great sense of joy basically of of having done what

I'd done. being able to come out the other side.

So it was relief and joy and happiness and and and you know I didn't

I didn't have mixed emotions at all about it.

I felt really good. So day zero,

it was a good day. You know, I remember waking up and and and going for

a hike with my wife and and and smiling and yeah I I just it felt like

you know I'd done it. I'd done what I set out to do and and I

was really thrilled with it.

That's incredible. That's awesome.

And what about since then? Have there been i any any second guesses or even just

a a difficulty what do you do now?

I know I've talked to business owners that they didn't second guess the sale,

but about two months in it was kinda like,

Where do I go? What do I do? There was kind of this Yeah. moping period, I had one person call it,

of Sure. kind of a loss of purpose almost.

Yeah, look, I think it's a really interesting point.

So I was fortunate I didn't lose a sense of identity or purpose.

So I was lucky with that. But I I think I had something I've come

to call post traumatic boss disorder.

Like I just needed to relax, you know,

I just need to do nothing for a while.

So, you know, I've heard that a lot of people when they s exit,

they then go and, you know, it's like a rebound girlfriend,

they and start up a new business straight away.

And and I didn't want to do that.

I just wanted some time off.

I think I probably had a bit of a heavy heart with how some of the staff took

the sale in terms of you know,

I felt there was they weren't quite as happy for me as what I had hoped,

you know. And when you, you know,

you look after your staff and you take good care of them and and you

do all the right things and then when you tell them,

Look, you know, I've sold and here's why and then it's a really good move

for me and my family and you know,

some of them were were happy for me and some of them understood it,

which is great, but there were a few that that that were not thrilled

and and that was disappointing,

you know. So that probably burned a hole in my in my head.

Fibbit for a while. That was one the downsides of like of of not quite,

you know, understanding that or not quite being happy about that.

but absolutely the lack of, you know,

a clear direction can you know,

I think some people spiral out of control.

I spiraled into control. Like everything in my life got,

you know, instead of, you know,

not exercising at all or drinking too much,

it kind of went the other way. I was exercising a lot and doing all the right things and eating really well.

So I think I probably exerted a bit of a sense of extra control

on every other aspect of my life.

yeah after I sold. So look, there's definitely ups and downs and

now twelve months removed, I'm still just really starting to kind of

get my head around what the future might hold.

but yeah, it's exciting and and I'm I'm I'm very much glad I I I sold,

that's for sure.

So looking at what you've done and the prospects for young business people today, Sure. do you think it's still possible for someone else to do what you've done?

I've pondered that a lot.

I'm not sure it's the answer you you you are hoping for,

but I think it's really hard. And if I knew how hard it was,

I'm not sure I could recommend it.

So it's not to say it can't be done because I did it,

but on balance, i you know, I'm not sure I can r recommend what I did.

If someone came to me and said,

Hey Michael, I want to do what you did do this,

I'd have to say, look, think I think the wise move is actually to find

the guy or girl who's the crazy brave one trying to do it.

And go and work for them. Like I think that's the much more clever way

to go about it. But can it be done?

Yeah, it can. And people will continue to do it.

But is is it worth it or could I recommend what I've done?

I'm not sure I can say yes. I think that I'd have to say,

look, that you know, there are enormous costs to it.

And business can be so much fun and enjoyable and things and

but certainly in Australia, you know,

it's really hard. So I I I couldn't recommend it certainly at the moment and say,

you know, go off and and be an entrepreneur and and try and do great things because

I think that You know, the the the the winds i i it's more difficult than it ever has been

and I think that you need to think carefully about doing that.

So is it possible? Absolutely.

Would I advise someone to follow my lead and do exactly what I've done?

I don't think so.

So i if you could go back to the beginning knowing what you know now,

would you choose to do it again or would you go that other route that

you would advise someone else?

Knowing what I know now, I'd hope I'd go a different route.

But the thing is it's one Ha ha ha.

it's one thing to know it, but look,

I wouldn't listen to my own advice.

You know, like if I was that young guy and and this old head saying,

hey, look, maybe think about this,

like, bugger it. I'd just do it anyway,

you know. So yeah, I I think that Yeah. I yeah, if if if if I was listening to my own advice,

I wouldn't take it. But at this stage,

though, I'd still give the advice and at least now I can give and go,

or at least I tried. So

Yeah, I I think that I I think I wouldn't have pushed myself so hard.

I think I just pulled back on the reins a bit and not quite.

You know, everything was just with,

you know, blue flame intensity.

And I think that I probably could have done yeah,

very well at seventy five percent rather than just going at at a hundred

and one percent.

That's I think the mark of an entrepreneur is they're gonna do it

no matter what advice they get or Yeah. what somebody tells Like there there is no other option but to do that.

So Well this is Totally agree. Yep. So no I was definitely whether

whether I am still that I'm not sure,

but absolutely I was that. It would not have mattered what you put in front of me,

I was gonna do it. So yeah, absolutely agree. Yeah. Good stuff. Well, this is my favorite question.

I ask every guest. are you a person of a particular faith tradition?

And if so, how has that impacted your leadership and your journey?

Yeah, really interesting. so I find faith like I've got I I've read lots

of business books, but there was a stage that y I I read a lot

of books on comparative religion and theology and and so it

was something that interested me a lot.

so I I'm not a person of faith.

I'm a I'm an atheist and but I you know,

I had a Christian upbringing and I'm baptized Catholic and I and I I broadly

you know, I believe in in in in those Christian institutions and and

in those values and I think that they've been absolutely,

you know, just because I'm atheist,

I d not for a second do I discard all the the very,

very amazing things that yeah,

that that that that faith has brought and that particularly Christianity

has has brought. So I don't sort of throw everything out with that.

In fact, quite the opposite. so yeah,

while I'm not of faith, I can certainly,

yeah, I I I put value in yeah,

the the the the

the lessons and the virtues of all of those th that that come along with

yeah with that very much so and look you know I think that yeah that that

they've helped shape the Western world,

certainly Australia, America and things and and with good reason

and it's something to to uphold.

Okay. What has been your best resource to grow as a leader?

You mentioned that you read a lot,

you've had a couple good mentors.

Yeah. if you had one thing that's helped you the most,

what has it been? It'll have to be books. Yeah. Like I think,

you know, I've got a stack of a hundred behind me there.

I've just learnt so much, you know,

and the return on investment of them,

if they each cost, you know, twenty-five bucks,

you know, reading those hundred books is,

you know, it's a seven figure sum,

what what I've learnt from it,

you know, no question. So yeah,

it it it's simple and boring, but hugely effective.

So I think that yeah, books have been amazing for me and for my business

and and for my yeah, for my personal growth as a leader as well.

So it it's been a year. you you worked like crazy,

built a very successful business,

exited very successfully, kinda achieved financial independence

and financial freedom. What have you been up to for the last year and

and what is next? Are you just sailing off into the sunset Yeah. or do you have something else on the horizon?

Look, there's a few things. So I'm I'm doing a course,

a politics course at the moment.

So I wonder if I might try and transition into that.

That's one possibility. So in into into a life of public service and

and trying to help you know,

work having been successful in in in health and in business,

whether I I look at moving into to politics.

The other thing I'm interested in is is is kind of going back to where

it started and and and and seeing patients with orofacial pain

so just difficult difficult cases

People with long-standing pain that quite often get shuffled from

one clinician to another, to another,

to another. And frankly, quite often nobody wants to see them because they're hard

work. But I enjoy it, you know,

and I like doing that. And it's something that sort of piqued my interest.

I bought a few textbooks on it.

So I'm wondering if I go back and do a bit more study on that actually

and kind of go back to, you know,

I don't want 35 team members again,

you know, like I don't want to do that,

but just sitting one-on-one with someone and just trying to help them out,

basically, and then kind of see the people that no one else wants to.

see and and it's it's it's problem solving and it's it's yeah it's it's it's it's

an interesting problem to try and solve,

but to kind of go from one end to the other and then go back and just yeah

be able to take my time with that and maybe maybe do that a couple of days a week.

U would you ever go back to the practice that you sold and practice there?

Yeah, it's still a really good practice.

Yeah. So absolutely. Like there's no I've got no opposition to that at all.

yeah, so so so that would absolutely be on the cards.

If if I was to work as a general dentist,

would I you if if tomorrow I decided I want to go and do that as opposed

to doing a specialty, then yeah,

I'd be knocking on the door saying,

you know, can I have a job? So,

you know, I left on excellent terms.

They're all good people. the vast majority that when I left I worked there still

work there. So yeah, I I I don't

you know, I think it's really important for legacy to to to leave on good terms

and I and I definitely did. So yeah,

it's it's it's funny. you know,

when I have friends who, you know,

need a dentist or they're not then I'll recommend the practice still because there's

they're all good people, you know.

So the fact that I don't work there or own it anymore doesn't change any of that.

So yeah, I'd be open to that. Absolutely.

y you mentioned you're writing a few articles that you're publishing on Yes. LinkedIn. If if somebody wants to connect with you or learn a little

bit more about your story, what's the best way to find the resources that you've

made available or maybe get in touch with you?

So LinkedIn, so if you go to Dr.

D R and then Michael Filosi, F-I-L-O-S-I,

you will find me. So look me up on LinkedIn,

give me a connection request and I'd love to hear from you.

Yeah, by all means send me send me a message.

So once you've linked, yeah,

you can send me a message. Would love to to hear from anyone who listens to this.

Always happy to have a chat online.

And yeah, that's the best place to find me on LinkedIn,

Dr. Michael Filosi.

Okay. And the last thing to kind of wrap things up,

is there anybody that you'd like to see on this show?

Somebody that has a really unique story or has run a unique business that you'd like

to learn more about?

I'm always interested in people with in mature businesses that have grown.

So if you've got some proprietary software or something that no one else has,

I think it's easier to grow the business even if you're not running it well.

Whereas what I'm interested in is,

you know, like there's a baker at the end of my street who's growing

his business enormously. And, you know,

there's only so many ways you can make a pie,

you know. So they're the sorts of cool,

interesting businesses I find.

So no one specifically, I have to say,

but I think that yeah.

Finding people that with mature businesses that that are growing exponentially

and growing really well, that to me is fascinating in a way that maybe,

yeah, software businesses aren't that just can kind of ride something.

So I think, yeah, that the the unsexy businesses that are just growing really well

in mature industries, I I think they're really cool.

I love that. You kinda nailed a niche there that it it it takes a a different skill.

Not not to say that the other businesses don't take skill, Hundred percent. No. but it takes a different skill to take a mature business and an established industry

and grow it in a significant way.

So Totally agree with you. I think if you've got you can get a lot wrong if you've

got some other things right in a in a you know,

in a in a in a niche business.

Whereas in a mature business you have to be making every post a winner and really,

yeah, y you you can't be getting much wrong.

So that's the stuff that impresses me is those mature industries,

mature businesses and and watching them take off.

Good stuff. Well, Michael, thank you so much.

I know with the time difference here,

you're staying up really late to join us.

You've given up a significant amount of time.

And man, you just have an incredible story,

a lot of wisdom and an an incredible success.

So congratulations and thank you for your time.

My pleasure, Erick. It's been I've really loved the chat.

Thank you so much for having me on.

I love your energy and yeah, some really good questions there.

So thank you so much.

Wonderful. Thank you guys.

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