Mark Wilson – One Minute From Failure: $1.8M Debt, Embezzlement, and the Wire That Saved the Store

So I went about two years, went from a hundred and fifty thousand dollars

in debt my whole life to one point eight million dollars overnight.

And our and and I was leveraged to the hilt.

dude.

I am twenty eight thousand short.

And if I don't get a truck, I'm in trouble.

Sure enough, one minute, one fifty-nine PM,

a wire lands in my account, by grace of God,

two o'clock they extract that.

And that was the tip over where we started gaining.

Welcome to From the Ground Up Show.

Honest conversations with people who have built their lives,

careers, and businesses with heart,

hands, and hustle. Your host, Erick Loden,

acquired and scaled his family's roofing company,

growing annual revenue more than eightfold and operating profit about

15 fold before choosing an internal sale and retiring from the business at 37.

Join Erick and his guests for the hard-earned lessons behind real success.

Today's guest is Mark Wilson, a Wyoming businessman and real estate broker,

experienced in grocery, insurance,

and property. That's

quite a variety.

Mark entered grocery work in Cody after moving there as a teenager.

Later owned a Buffalo supermarket for 11 years,

built an insurance agency, and now serves as a broker partner with RE/MAX Elevation

in Buffalo. Across more than 35 years in business ownership,

management, and real estate leadership,

he has experienced the pressure of buying,

operating, growing, and selling companies while serving customers

in Wyoming communities.

His path offers a useful look at what transfers

Transfers between industries, reading people,

managing risk, building trust,

making payroll, deciding when to sell,

and starting again after an identity defining chapter ends.

We will explore the decisions behind each transition,

the cost and mistakes that shaped him,

how family and community influenced his leadership,

and what decades of ownership have taught him about opportunity,

success, and knowing when it's time for the next chapter.

So Mark, this should be fun. That's a mouthful.

You've got like

You've

got a lot of experience. It's a journey.

It's a journey. It's been a j

a big journey, trust me. thought I'd die in a grocery store.

and I really love the business.

I actually still

love it. I always concerned about the staffing,

and that's a question that I want to explore a topic I'll explore about

my philosophy on the culture we live in today.

Okay. All right. Well, we like to start every show getting to know you

a little bit and know a little bit about where you came from.

what was childhood like for you?

What what was your upbringing like and what lessons did you learn as a

kid that have carried through to today?

my mother is the oldest of eight.

No.

And

we bl grew up in an agricultural area of central California,

Central California, south of Fresno.

south of Fresno. My first job was thirteen and I had my own truck and

My first job was thirteen and I had my own truck and I'd go milk cows

I'd go milk cows and feed cows in the summers and and they don't take days

off and so I think that's partially where the work ethic came from because they were

really nice folks I worked for,

nice folks I worked for but they were you know,

but they were, you know, you can't miss,

you can't miss. And back in the day,

back in those days when I was thirteen I was making I was only working three,

four hours a day, but I was making six dollars an hour

and I was like, Man, I I nobody had

Nobody had

their own money, you know, kids my age and

I drove three miles to this dairy and feed cows and then I go help milk cows

dairy and feed cows and then I go help milk cows and then it was just that's

and it was just a that's the start of my work life.

the start of my work life. It was crazy and and then my dad took a position

It was crazy. And and then my dad took a position as the postmaster in Cody

as the postmaster in Cody is how up me and Cody went.

is how we ended up in Cody, Wyoming.

And so and him and I moved out

ourselves while my mom was still backselling the house of just me and

So it was just me and him and great thing about that was is I used to get questions,

do you miss California? Do you miss I'm like

No, my dad, we had one rig, I'd drop him off at the post office and he bought

me a fishing license and I fished for about the first forty days of my life in Cody,

my life in Wyoming. Literally forty days in a row.

And then I he's like, You're gonna have to get a job and so I started

So I in a grocery business as a carryout for me.

out in the grocery business as a carry out boy.

Okay. And how did you get

Okay. And how did you get

that job? Was it just that was who was hiring or no,

I so I had two offers. I have black

Lodge. I thought, man, I can go work up there and do whatever they

ha they were hiring and then my dad had met one of the guys that the owner

of the store at some deal he was at and

And I was the first male carry out boy they had in Cody,

Wyoming at the IGA store. And so,

it was it was and I just you know,

I went to college, I didn't know what I wanted to be,

had three or four different you know,

you know, you're trying to figure out what you want to do and I have you know,

my thoughts on college are probably like a lot of folks,

but one day I was working in the summer at the store and I see the owner,

the new owner of the store and he's got a big whole home and he's living

the life and

I walked into his office one day and I was like,

How do you own one of these things?

And so he started me down, he's such an influential guy in my life.

He started me down where you learned everything,

took me

nine, eight eight years to go through every area of a grocery store from throwing

trucks at night to cutting meat and deli bakery,

bakery, all those things. 'Cause he his philosophy was you can't manage

you don't know how to do it. Ironically though,

Ironically though, his manager didn't know how to do all that stuff.

But he transitioned with me and it was just a cool experience 'cause we

He transitioned with me and it was just a cool experience 'cause we s

we s we spent two hours visiting about that and he said,

You're gonna have to separate yourself from these people if you're gonna

get into leadership or

And so I went through those eight years of you know,

nights and bakery and middle of the night.

Everything was scratched back then in the bakery and so it was like making

it from zero donuts to bread, all the anyway.

all that anyway. very cool. Very cool.

very cool. Very cool. and it paid off handsomely in the past.

and it paid off handsomely in the past.

I mean in the future moving forward.

People that thought, Well, you you need me

No, not really. I'll go back and do it until I hire someone else.

So

you know what I mean? So I had I had the experience to be able to run

that and that was priceless. It was really priceless.

So

So it you said that you did go to college.

how valuable do you see that education in the way that your career has unfolded?

Was it worth it?

No, 'cause I th I'll tell you,

I think college if you know what you're doing and you wanna chase that,

I think that's very valuable. I think moving forward in the future of the trades,

my son does very well, works for a big company out of they have offices

in Vegas and Great Falls and he does really well and he never went to school.

And I just think if you don't have that targeted what you're doing,

you're floundering like I was,

was the same way. She went had two or three different majors.

and my wife was the same way. She went to college,

had two or three different majors

Really didn't nothing really captured you and so I literally bailed

Really didn't nothing really captured so I literally bailed a half.

out of college after a year and a half.

Okay. And went full time in the grocery business.

Wow. That especially at that point in time that I think college

was probably being pushed pretty hard.

That was kind of a bold move. what what was it that gave you

That was kind of a bold move. Yep.

Yeah. What what was it that gave you the confidence to kind of forego the

the confidence to kind of forego the

the traditional education path and do your own thing?

Well, I guess I I kinda think that my

I never really my parents weren't big on pushing me into college and and you know,

but they they didn't have college degrees and so it wasn't something in

my life that they like, Hey, you gotta go get a school.

I just thought that was the natural path of most people,

so I'd give it a whirl and I'd end up majoring in foosball and beer drinking like

every other college kid and and I just was s cycling through that.

And I just was cycling through that.

I like, Man and you know what I had I

had worked part time during the college and high school when I moved to Cody

and in the summers I worked full time and when I saw this guy walk in and I thought

I think I wanna do this. I enjoyed it,

enjoyed the business, love the people part of it,

which is a whole nother segment in my mind,

which is a whole nother segment in my mind because the life being relational

because the life being relational as it is,

as it is, I don't think that's ever going away.

And how you take care of people and and how we grew these businesses over time.

both the grocery here in Buffalo,

that's a funny story how I ended up in Buffalo.

story how I ended you know

Used to r my first store manager's job was in Gillette and used

Used to drive through here a lot.

Cody

Kel Cody was where Kelly was and we had a house.

So I d I took my first job and didn't even tell my wife.

So I I took my first job and didn't even tell my wife.

And that was not good advice. So I was so excited.

I was so excited, I was making like nine dollars an hour and I was gonna make forty

I was making like nine dollars an hour and I was gonna make forty grand

grand a year or forty two thousand a year on my first job and I said yes

And I said yes and then I go home and said,

no and didn't

even run that by her. I was so excited about the opportunity and so

was so excited about the opportunity and so I managed that store for

I managed that store for a couple of years,

a couple of years, year and half and

Lots of crazy stories. Someday you oughta do one on just shoplifting.

I could go for hours on shoplifting and that kind of thing.

But anyway that I got shingles 'cause I left the manager,

the owner of the store that brought me into all that and was teaching me,

you know. He he's like, No,

you can get everything you need here you know,

You know, he didn't really want me to leave,

he didn't really want me to leave apparently and I

apparently. And I

I got shingles because I was so nervous because he was instrumental in how to

do everything in the store. I didn't know finances and all that.

Learning how to do everything in the store and that was my first manager's job.

I was figured out and I was the youngest I was the store manager and

I didn't know finances and all that.

I was figuring it and I was the youngest I was a store manager and

the youngest guy in the building in Gillette.

It was the journey. So you said you got your start as a kid in grocery

and saw some success there that inspired you,

caused you to ask questions. when you took that or when you started down that career

path.

and started learning all about grocery stores and preparing to manage one.

w was that already a career track you had in mind or at what point in time

did you see this could be a real career and something that I want to pursue?

Well, that two hour conversation with my with the owner of the store.

and and and not only telling me about,

hey, I want you to learn everything,

but also saying, you know, you separate yourself a little bit.

If you're gonna be in a leadership role,

you're not gonna really socialize with the people that you're leading,

you're not you know, and there's some great lessons in that,

trust me. you know, you be friendly but not friends kind of thing and so

I did exactly what he said. And I caught a lot of grief because it was

a you're the golden boy, you know,

'cause he was pushing me through.

'cause he was pushing me through and so I caught a lot of grief over that because

And so I caught a lot of grief over that 'cause people wanted you to,

people wanted you to, you know,

you know, let's go out and have a beer,

let's go out and have a beer, let's go out and have dinner and I'm just like,

let's go out and have dinner and I'm just like,

No, I can't do that and

it proved very wise, you know,

because there's a different element when you start being friends with people you're

because there's a different element when you start being friends with people you're

managing. You know, there's there it ch it changes on their end.

It may not change on yours, but it changes on their end like whatever that looks

managing. Yeah. Like whatever that looks like.

like. And so

I just did what he said and it it it was hard because I separated myself from

the people I was working with a little bit.

Didn't go on breaks with them anymore,

didn't you because he's like you know,

so I I trusted him and and it proved right.

So that it's something we talk about a lot is ownership.

And leadership can be lonely. you know,

often y you can't go talk to your bowling buddies about the the big six figure win.

They they can't connect. It it often sounds like bragging or

there's a separation there and conversely they don't understand

they don't understand the pressure of payrolls coming and you don't have

the pressure of payrolls coming and you don't have the money in the bank

the money in the bank to make payroll.

to make payroll.

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it sounds like you kind of experienced that loneliness a little bit early on.

you were separated from your coworkers even before you were

in leadership and the boss. w how did you I

I mean how how did you manage that in life?

Did you find people to connect with?

Where did you just have to live lonely for a long time?

No, I don't think I left

What did that look like?

lived lonely. You know, I've always been active.

I was you know, sports and all those types of things.

So I had friends outside of the store.

So it wasn't that hard of a transition.

It was just hard when I was there for quite a while,

a couple of years, because it was just like they saw a transition in

Like they saw a transition in me and I explained it.

me and I explained it. I'm just like

I'm just like

I just got this goal. I guess this is where I'm going.

It's nothing against you guys personally.

It's just I'm taking the advice of a guy that's successful and I'm just trying

to mimic what he says and and you know,

you learn your own things. You can still be friendly and and and it took

a long time for people to to grasp that I had this bigger vision in my head,

You know. And it's okay, it was good.

It was just not you know, it wasn't enjoyable but

but

yeah,

Yeah. It it was just just part of the journey.

What

what were their responses when you explained that the the reason

you weren't gonna connect with them much was because you hoped to

be their boss someday. Well, yeah.

Well and I was in in yeah, and so that all also created but I also think work

But I was.

environment and things that I learned or maybe it came somewhat naturally

at some level. You know, I had some bad bosses in that store that

I you know, my I got s crazy stories of working a hundred and a hundred and

ten to a hundred and twenty hours a week 'cause a bad boss.

He worked his forty but I was

like a rented mule, you know, and and so I I learned through that

And so I I learned through that and and learning through that is like I

and and learning through that is like I I I remember going home and

w I I remember going home and my wife was livid.

my wife was livid. She's just like,

She's just like, You haven't had a day off in I think it was almost four months,

no day off. None. Hire somebody,

I was end up they end up firing him and it ended up me being the manager

of this bakery and then every time I'd hire somebody they wouldn't show

or whatever and I'm in there all the time and

Kelly'll tell ya, we had a we had a back in the day we had a water bed

and she said the sheets from just the grease and stuff

Even though you'd shower, you'd just see this ring around,

you know, 'cause I honestly I'd get off and we used we had some kids

in Cody or Roman and hang out with the kids,

hang out with the kids, get to bed about eight eight thirty and wake

get to bed about eight, eight thirty and wake up at eleven thirty and go to work.

up at eleven thirty and go to work.

It was just that incessantly. And so but in my mind I'm like,

I'm not gonna let this guy win,

you know, and then they end up firing him and and just some cool things that

I learned about leadership early and I don't know that I learned it from them.

Like I say, it might have been somewhat naturally,

but you know, we had a cleaning

company that came in and and and I told the owner,

I'm like, these people are pigs because they know someone's coming behind them.

I said, I want to eliminate that.

So we're gonna all start cleaning these areas ourselves

themselves so that they understand they understand that you can't just leave

a mess for somebody else and and not and not have any ramifications for that.

So we kicked out the cleaning company.

So we saved the money and Yeah,

He was fine with it. And so we saved him money and you know I mean Yeah

you want me to not pay someone else to clean and you're just gonna go ahead

and do that for me? Like Yeah.

It that was interesting too.

So you worked for you said about eight years kinda in training at every level

of the grocery store, learning it inside and out.

really kind of an apprentice program.

Yep. how do you transition away from that owner that's been a mentor

and you've been connected with and working with and end up owning

and launch or owning and running your own store?

Well that Gillette stand and then I end up in Billings that manage the store.

I managed a store. So there's some there's what I call defining moments

in in my career. The one in Gillette,

I was basically the guy's name was Mr.

Woodward. He had Woodward's IGA in Riverton and he I basically got sold

a bill of goods. The store wasn't doing well,

had a ton of inventory. When I moved there I asked Supervalue to take back

all this inventory. It was like ninety thousand dollars that was just piled

in there that the previous manager had

got great stories about that. anyway.

And so got up got my start, but he was in far b bigger debt than he led on.

And so we got to the point where,

you know, I'm learning P and L's,

I'm I'm I'm learning how to read a financial statement and all those things

and and making hard decisions and,

you know, but

There was just no light out of it at the end of the tunnel.

And pride pride from that owner,

he's super nice guy, but he

you know, they had had cyclical situations where they store did really good

for a while and then they boom,

for a while and then they boom it tanked and and I and I told the owner

it tanked. And and I and I told the owner one day he came in,

one day he came in, he said, You know,

he said, You know, the store looks great.

He says, As good as it's ever looked and what's wrong?

I said, I really think you need to take your name off the building I said,

I said, This thing has gone through and he lost his mind b you know,

B you know, pride factor, he's just like there's no way we're ever doing that

from a pride factor. He's just like,

There's no way we're ever doing that.

And I'm like, you know, my my intent was is let's just give it an entire fresh look.

It's still be your store, it's just a name.

name. Yeah. So I ended up taking a job in Billings working for another company.

for another company. That was a journey.

That was a little journey. It was a

It was a

it was a union store. Had three separate union contracts in Billings.

had three separate union contracts and billings.

I was only there for a year and a half and my gosh,

my gosh, I got so much trouble out of this shoot 'cause I'm just like,

You're out, you're fired, you know,

this ain't my job. I'm not picking that up.

It's not in my contract, you know,

just that Yeah. Basically got employees pitted against employer in that environment.

in that environment and it was brutal,

Brutal. Brutal. Brutal environment.

brutal, brutal environment. so I actually told the

owner of the Cody store,

I heard that the one in Buffalo was for sale.

I heard that the one in Buffalo was for sale and I called him and I said,

And I called him and I said, Hey,

Hey, I would love to come run that for you Well what happened in Billings though

Well what happened in Billings though was was interesting,

was was interesting is she owned her husband passed away.

Oddly enough, Dennis Dobbins at DJ's who worked for the same guy

at a different time. Small world.

a different time small world and he and I

And he and I

and we did the same thing. Cleaned the store,

did what we could, got rid of some key people strategically because they were just

toxic, poisonous in the environment of the store.

And but she didn't run it as well as her husband did.

And so I went into her office one day as another defining moment and I said,

You know what, I have nothing to lose here 'cause right now I c I don't know what

c I don't know what more I can be doing.

more I can be doing.

so my suggestion would be is you sell off some of your convenience stores that were

not doing well and put some money into this store or sell your grocery store

and run with one of was my suggestion.

Well, she did it.

I got fired. And I went to work for the people that bought it at about

a thirty one percent, thirty two percent reduction in pay.

And so but it was one of those things I said I'd be doing you disservice,

I didn't tell you my thinking here and so

And so

she did it. And I was like, gee minus So she sold the grocery store

to our wholesaler and and I ended up working at a really busy county market

in Billings for a while. But I called,

I found out that this store in Buffalo was for sale and

and

And I called the owner and I said,

You know, take a run at it if you if you think that's something it's part

of your deal. He owns Rocky Mountain Sports or did at the time and he and

he had a grocery store up in Miles City and had the one in Cody and he was

was a good businessman. He was a very good businessman and he

And he

so he calls the guy in Warland who owns it,

Doug Maxwell, and they don't come to terms.

Well then about s four or five months later,

Well then about four or five months later he calls again

he calls again.

the guy in Cody and says, I'm I wanna talk again so we had he so I ended

the guy in Cody and says, I'm I wanna talk again.

So we he so I end up that's how I got the job here is he's like,

up that's how I got the job here is he's like,

Hey, I'll buy it if you want to go run it.

Okay. And then my journey started in Johnson County and that there's a that's

a it's a journey too 'cause I don't know if you remember,

you're probably too young. That that store used to have a wooden ramp

that got into the store and it was just filthy and disgusting and anyway,

store and was just filthy and disgusting.

lots of stories about Buffalo and my start.

But one one key advice and I'll tell you the story about it with

One one key advice and I'll tell you the story about it with the when we remodeled,

the when we remodeled

we bought the house next to the store and

I was the general manager. We were gonna but you had to go through three hundred

feet and get the city council's blessing.

And so I'm gonna I'm sitting in a city council meeting and somebody wanted

a lady in town wanted to open a tea room on Main Street,

a house that was just gonna be kinda like that little tea room right

now across the way. And they axed it.

And I'm like, There's no way in heck they're gonna give me this very you know,

the ability to enlarge the store.

Nine people from the neighbors came in and were disputing.

why their property values, whatever were gonna go down.

And in their infinite wisdom at that time,

they said, Well all the problems that you guys are bringing to the table

are current existing problems with the store and yours we can tell

And your as we can tell is they're just gonna make it better.

is they're just gonna make it better.

Approved. And I was like, whoa,

And I was like, I couldn't believe it.

jeez. I couldn't believe it. I was just I walk out of there like,

I was just I walk out of there like,

whoa, it's so I mean, I end up being friends with all the neighbors.

Had ki three of them had keys to the store.

They can go in on holidays and get what they needed and just put a note on

You know, there's a lot about that.

So that was that was a defining

moment. And then I didn't ever was a builder or I was in any of that

and I'm the general manager of this grocery store and it was just

and the remodel and countless hours of golly.

Just as we're as I was reading through your stuff the other day,

I was like, Man, alive, this is this is a journey.

It's been a journey. And I don't I wouldn't say Buffalo's been so good to me,

Yeah. But I it was not easy. Yeah.

but I it was not easy. Yeah. You know hard small communities can often

I think hard small communities can often be hard to kinda get into.

be hard to kinda get into

Especially it's one thing if you move into the community,

it's another if you come in and start making changes and stirring things

up and everybody kinda has their routine,

they know everybody. was there any particular incident that

was exceptionally hard when you first moved here?

Well, when we cut those people loose,

I'll tell you a funny story on that.

So my

wife and I drive down from Billings,

Kelly and I, and we just got out of church.

I was I was a new believer and I was f kind of

Started the journey of faith and we come down.

So I was in it I was at church and I was in a suit when we jumped in

the car after church and came to and I was walking around the store.

The the deal was paper in the next week and so we wanted to see the town

and we went around Buffalo and and I walk in the back room of the store.

Of course I'm in a suit and they think I'm like I mean,

you can edit or not, but they think I'm some Mormon guy walking in and they said,

So what are you guys gonna change?

'Cause I had a suit on, I didn't have a badge or anything,

but I was

And I said, there were nine people sitting on milk crates smoking in the back room,

one cashier up front, and I said,

This right here. We're gonna change this to start.

but the journey was is that got letters and hate mail from letting some people go,

but there's a reason that the guy was selling.

It wasn't profitable. And so,

Crazy, crazy that way. But you know what was really cool is we cleaned up things.

we cleaned up things. I was still the youngest guy in the basically

I was still the youngest guy in the basically in the store that

in the store that was managing every you know,

was managing everything was a wasn't as big as County Market,

was a wasn't as big as County Market,

you know. County Martin was doing half a million a week and you know,

this little store was down to the forty,

fifty thousand a week. And but as we started cleaning,

fifty thousand a week and but as we started cleaning we started growing.

we started growing. And and that was

And and that was

that didn't stop until Walmart went to Sheridan.

We had double digit growth for like six years.

And of course the remodel didn't hurt.

After three years we remodeled,

but then we were soaring fourteen,

fifteen percent increases on an annual basis and just growing like a madman.

But the biggest part of I believe the biggest part of Buffalo winning,

you know, after the letters and the hate mail and why'd you get rid of so and so,

so and so they've been there for whatever.

was that the store was different.

And my boss told me, when I got all these things

all these receipts on my desk I was telling you about earlier and

got this note about this he said,

Well Mark, just know this. Nothing's ever as big as it seems.

Just chart your course and do your thing.

And he was spot on. We grew, we lost seven percent when

the year Walmart moved to Sheridan,

year Walmart moved to Sheridan and grew eleven the next year.

we grew eleven the next year. But I believe I believe just the involvement

But I believe I believe just the involvement in the community and I was neck deep

in the community and I was neck deep in helping kids,

in helping kids. You know, you know,

you know, you know, we tailgating the bison backers and and

church

church kids coming in and doing car washes and barbecues and ribeye sandwiches

and 'cause they'd come in, kids would come in and say,

kids would come in and say, Can you a you know this,

Can you add you know this, can you have a donation?

can you have a donation? I Well I can give you fifty bucks or twenty five bucks

or I can help you earn three or four hundred.

you earn three or four hundred So I thought they should earn their key.

So I thought they should earn their keep.

So we started this ribeye sandwich thing

and it just took off and one of my dearest friends,

one of my dearest friends, Donnie Paulson's daughter,

Donnie Paulson's daughter, had the most.

She raised in in one day thirteen hundred dollars to go on a mission trip.

on a mission trip. Wow. That was our biggest win.

And that was our biggest win. But then you know the

But then you know that

And the bison backers is a whole nother story 'cause I told him you gotta have

a funding mechanism. You have nothing.

a funding mechanism. You have nothing and so we started selling bison gear

And so we started selling bison gear and I gave seventy percent of the profits.

and I gave him seventy percent of the profits.

And then we were doing all these s grilling at the ball games that wasn't

and I would take the cash, I would take the food and if they sold

and if they sold one sandwich they made three bucks and I took everything back.

So they had nothing in it. But we

We

were selling seven, eight hundred dollars a football night and so

and so the bison backers started taking off and they had a revenue stream

and it was working and

and plus we were selling gear w in other places too and it was good.

It was just but I think that involvement and my whole philosophy and and

and it I swear it's never failed me.

Sometimes I think it does. but is if you take care of people and do the right thing,

do the right thing, the money comes.

the money comes.

Always has.

And and to be able to take the leadership part of that and sometimes

and sometimes you gotta make those hard decisions,

but also when you make a mistake,

own it.

And that's one of the biggest things I see people that don't they just don't

own their stuff. You know, one of my things in business,

so you the culture I was talking about to that earlier,

the culture that I see right now is you hear it all the time,

well, we just can't find good help.

You know, it's a thing. But I look at it a little differently,

it's like, Am I the kind of employer someone wants to work with?

And every time I hired somebody it was like,

Okay, I've asked you a ton of questions.

Now you gotta ask me some. You know,

'cause we're gonna have this relationship regardless.

And so at this point in time,

What do you want to know about me?

My leadership style. What and I and I and I was told at IGA,

it's two ways to get fired immediately.

One is stealing and you're gonna get brought to we're calling the cops,

you're going in, and I had an embezzling situation we talk about too,

but and the other one is if you grossly upset a customer for any reason,

realistically, they're not always right.

They think they are. W that's that whole slogan is the customer's always right.

The customer's always right. Well,

Well, they are in their own mind,

they are in their own mind, but but at the end of the day,

there's no reason to upset one.

You know, and I have

funny stories about people in Buffalo that come in,

you know, mad pricing was wrong or whatever and and yelling and freaking

out and it's like, you know, what do you want me to do here?

you know, what do you want me to do here?

I'll do whatever. I'm gonna make this right.

One guy's great story. He comes around if I was buying shrimp or something,

I was buying shrimp or something,

he's like, This was this said it was six ninety nine and it rang up eleven fifty

and I reached over in the cash drawer and I handed him a hundred dollar bill.

I said, Is this gonna fix this for you?

'Cause I'm willing to fix this.

And he just shut down. I said,

Take it.

I don't care. Take the money. If that's your burn,

we're not infallible. We're gonna make mistakes,

but I promise you we're gonna make it right.

but I promise you we're gonna make it right off.

Just do the right thing. Crazy.

That sounds like a great approach.

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So you started out in Buffalo managing the store for your mentor out of Cody.

yeah. Cody. how did you transition in over Sheridan?

how did you transition into ownership and what did that process look like?

So that that's what the process looked like.

That's

a great story. So I had a store in Sheridan for a while.

a store in Sheridan

for a while. Okay. Me and my brother in law did for a while.

And so when we bought that store as partners were you still managing Buffalo?

And so when we bought that store as partners,

I was managing Buffalo and part owner of a store.

So my brother in law ran an Albertsons in Colorado Springs or managed

was in management at Colorado Springs,

Albertson. And we had always talked.

He married my he mel married Kerry Kelly's sister and we always talked about being

in the business together. And so we we end up buying this store and that

was a journey too, 'cause and it didn't work out.

We end up liquidating, I ended up anyway,

so that didn't work out. But

But the owner of this store kind of saw the writing on the wall.

He's like, You know, he's gonna jump ship.

And you know, it wasn't that I was that great,

but the store was just humming.

And he comes to me and says, You know,

I think I want to sell that and so he's and and smart as he was,

he's like, Okay, 'cause I probably would have jumped ship and with Sheridan

to Sheridan and tried to make sure I could make it on my own,

you know, another defining moment.

anyway, that was about a quarter million dollar lesson.

But but it it's just the way it works sometimes and

And so I don't have anything.

I have a house payment, a hundred and thirty thousand dollar house in Buffalo

and my wife's car payment, and I have no money really,

really, I mean, to speak of to buy and he said I need eight hundred grand

for the store and so I talked to have a my embezzling story,

I have a great relationship with a banker in Cody.

and he basically gave me a signature note.

So I borrowed money to borrow money to buy IGA.

He gave me two hundred grand

grand. And I even lent with a different bank in Cody,

Shoshone National Bank. But he gave me a signature note for two hundred grand

and and then the owner and I are sitting there closing.

and the bank's like, You know what,

Like, you what Mr. MacArthur he said we'd really love it if he would sign

on this and be a backer on that and I said,

I won't do it. I just need to I've already been with this guy for years,

Not that he was bad, but I I need to make or break it on my own.

I don't want

somebody that I'm still beholding to other than you,

the bankers. And so he

they agreed to do the note and I away I went and then about a year and

And then about a year and a half later,

a half later he's like, I want to sell the building,

I'm gonna sell it to you, or I'm selling it to somebody else.

So I went about two years, went from a hundred and fifty thousand dollars

in debt my whole life to one point eight million dollars overnight.

And our and and I was leveraged to the hilt.

man and I was leveraged. Yeah.

To the hilt. And so the building itself was a

we put some money into that and so

Brutal and I thought, Well I can't have him out or some other guy,

I'll be renting or leasing and so we ended up we ended up doing that.

We ended up that. It was just a it was like,

dang it. So what what did that feel like?

What what did that feel like? I mean you been successful in your career

I mean, you've been successful in your career,

but kind of been working a job,

managing you know you didn't have the financial skin in the game other than just

managing a store for somebody else.

You know, you didn't have the financial skin in the game other than just a job.

a job. and go from you know, but kind of the normal life,

a house payment, a car,

normal numbers that people are used to dealing with and all of a sudden

and all of a sudden

you got one point eight million dollars sitting on your shoulder well

What did that feel like? Well it felt

like you know, ironically, Erick,

I don't I never really I don't really I did on a financial side of it 'cause then

my accountant in town was awesome.

This

is what he 'cause I was like, okay,

okay, I need to you know, you're getting all this together and he and he's like,

Well, I can do this for you or I can teach it to you.

Well, then he proceeded to teach me and I ran my own I paid all my own bills,

everything at IGA. I had a gal that in the office that helped me load

all that stuff and I did my own payroll.

I eventually outsourced payroll 'cause it was super cheap with our wholesaler.

I even you know so I outsourced payroll but other than that,

but other than that,

i I never really felt like, gosh,

because here's what I felt. I already had success as a manager.

And

And it was working and it was growing and it was still there.

it was still there. So when we bought the store,

So when we bought the store or when I managed the store,

when I managed the store, we came in,

it was doing like two point one million a year in gross revenue and then when

And then when I sold it was doing six point four million.

Wow. Over that course of those years.

And and I'll tell you why I sold it too.

And it was just another one of those things you're just like,

you know, in my mind I'm like I

wouldn't have done things that way or but anyway,

But anyway, I didn't feel the burden of that,

but when I budgeted, my budget

was about a point eight two percent net that I could squeeze out of this

if all cylinders are running. I mean it was thin.

Super thin. And times that there were times when I didn't take paycheck,

Super thin. And times that there were times when I didn't take paycheck,

you know. Yeah. And the embezzling

thing about buried me. And thankfully for the same banker friend of mine

in in Cody, I had three lines of credit and it was a it was a nightmare.

I mean I'm we're humming, we're up in volume and I'm I have no cash.

And

You learn a lot of lessons through that.

Yeah. It was wild. So how did you ha y you were already kind of doing most

of your own financials. Yep. what holes were in that system that allowed somebody

to embezzle and how did you eventually find out?

Well, when I called my wholesaler and a good friend

of mine was what they call our retail business counselor or whatever from

our wholesaler I said something's seriously wrong here.

I knew there was, but I said there's I mean,

there's no way that we're

I should not have cash. And he so he sends me this list of things that

so he sends me this list of things that are like basically a cash flow inhibitor

are like basically a cash flow inhibitor or things that would that you need

or things that would that you need to look at.

Well the first one was like I've talked to retailers that their people were stealing

were stealing cigarettes, for example,

cigarettes for example and selling in the back door.

and selling at the back door and you

know, and so we had all this technical stuff where you could if you t turned

on all the toggle switches, you could get about a hundred and twenty pages

of a day of reporting. Well, one of was your pricing.

So I I printed, I turned all those toggles on and I printed it it was about

a foot and a half of documents for a year.

And I started seeing transactions prior to

us being open or transactions when I was at lunch.

And so what this person was doing was my pricing coordinator.

And I only had records for a year,

but she worked for me for nine.

So anyway, that was a gr that's a crazy story.

So I'll t yeah, you've got to hear this one because this

So I start looking at that and I start funneling through that.

And I think it was one of the officers or the detective at the time came

in and I sh I printed all that.

We were sitting going through there and I was highlighting these weird transactions.

So what they were doing is they were or this person was doing,

she would scan, let's say, yogurt,

she would scan, let's say, yogurt and it's fifty cents on the she would change

and it's fifty cents on the she would change the price to thirty-five dollars,

the price to thirty-five dollars,

return it, change the price back.

and so it showed the inventory coming in and the cash going out.

It all looked great. All the paperwork showed there was nothing wrong until

you turned on the weeds on that.

So we it took us about three months and we developed a case and knew

who it was doing it. And

called her in and and I figured at ninety nine percent I figured it

figured at ninety nine percent I figured it was close to that year

was close to that year was close to fifty eight grand in one year.

was close to fifty eight grand.

Wow one year. This person had a gambling addiction and didn't know that either.

This person had a gambling addiction and I didn't know that either.

I was running a lot at the time and she would give us rides early in the morning,

me and Dave Harness, and we'd run back into town all the while she's

in there while I'm gone, supporting her addiction.

And so I

we cuff her, hauler around the store.

I No, no, no, no, you're not going right out the front door.

You're this girl's gonna know.

you're this girl's gonna know I was just upset because so we get to court

I was just upset because so we get to court and I walk in and the gal that's

and I walk in and the gal that's in the ho I said,

in the I said, So what's gonna happen here?

And she said, Well, she's gonna probably get ten years in prison.

and because of the amount of money.

So what happened was is I could prove one hundred percent just under forty grand.

I couldn't prove the other one percent.

I couldn't prove the other one percent so the court and they just said,

So the court and they just said,

No, you can't we're not gonna

add li so I had thirty eight thousand dollars.

I did have an insurance that covered for about twenty grand.

But I mean I in that time frame,

I mean, it got so tight Erick.

Our wholesaler would pull, you'd order groceries,

we had two trucks a week.

And they would pull Monday morning or Monday afternoons at two o'clock.

And if you didn't have the money,

didn't have the money, you're not getting a truck.

Well we had about three hundred and seventy thousand dollars worth of inventory.

And you can imagine over seven and doing a hundred plus thousand a day.

Yeah. And this store would have just vaporized an inventory if I didn't

I didn't get that truck. And I remember sitting in the bathroom,

this is a funny story. Sitting in the bathroom and I'm and I'm like,

Lord, I appreciate my challenges.

Could you make less expensive?

But could you make them less expensive?

You know, I'm pleased because I mean I had three lines of credit,

Yeah. I'm pleased 'cause I mean I had three lines of current

and so this is so true, and I couldn't believe it.

So two o'clock rolls around. So what I was doing,

I ordered the whole store at that time.

So we caught her, everything's and now we're trying to dig out of this hole.

And so I would calculate average case cost and tell the meat guy

and everybody this what you're getting what you only absolutely need

on payroll weeks, because we paid every twice a month.

And on off payroll weeks we're gonna slowly build your inventory and try

to get back to where we were because I was and I had sixty,

sixty five, seventy thousand dollars out on a on a on a s a non secured note from

the same banker. And my bank in town gave me some here,

and then the other bank gave me the other two lines of credit.

So I'm freaking out. I'm looking,

two o'clock's rolling around on a Monday morning or a Monday morning,

and I'm looking at my account and I had already called my banker and I'm like,

dude.

I am twenty eight thousand short.

And if I don't get a truck, I'm in trouble.

Sure enough, one minute, one fifty-nine PM,

a wire lands in my account, by grace of God,

two o'clock they extract that.

And that was the tip over where we started gaining.

And I ordered I ordered for a year myself,

back and forth. Payroll weeks,

didn't order much. Off payroll weeks,

ordered everything we could and budgeted it to what I had in my account and crazy.

So we're in court.

And she and I'm sitting there thinking,

Well, this is BS. She's just gonna go to prison,

whatever. But

But I have no restitution. Yeah.

So I'm sitting in the courtroom and she stands up,

she's crying, she's in an orange jumpsuit and chains and I'm like,

Save it. I have eleven full time employees here and you have jeopardized

and you have jeopardized the lives of all of us.

the lives of all of us. So you can cry all you want,

So you can cry all you want, but you did this to yourself.

but you did this to yourself. And the judge says,

And the judge says, Mr. Wilson,

Mr. Wilson, would you have anything you'd like to say?

I said, Yeah I said,

I don't think people get reformed in prison.

I said, I would put her on a steep,

steep probation. Can't go to liquor stores,

can't do that, and she has to start paying me back.

That's what he did.

So for five years I'm getting

three, four hundred a month. And then at the very end we had a

new district or county attorney at the very end it was funny.

Wasn't so I get a letter that says they've absolved her.

She still owed me like fifty three hundred dollars.

So I go marching to the county attorney's office.

I said, she still owes me money and you you absolved her from this.

Retroactively did it. Two weeks later I got a check for the fifty three hundred

Did it two weeks later I got a fifty three hundred dollars and I've never seen this

dollars and I've never seen this person

again.

Wow. Wow, that's a I I mean a terrible story puts you in a hard spot,

but it it's rare that you hear that i it actually works out that way.

Like you said, usually in theft cases of a person might go to jail,

Like you said, usually in theft cases,

I mean the person might go to jail,

but you don't you don't get your stuff back.

I I was shocked

he did it, but I was grateful and I thought,

you know what, she needs to feel the pain of it and he did.

And he did. She could she couldn't get prescriptions.

she couldn't do she had an ankle monitor for the full time and all that.

And I said, and here's the other thing I told him and I told her,

she

was listening.

she was listening. I said the other thing is if she falters on this at all,

her ten years in prison starts that day.

Yeah. And he did it.

it. Wow. Wow. That's pretty cool.

That's pretty cool. Yeah, it was interesting story.

Yeah, it was an interesting story.

Painful one though. it sounds like you learned a

So it sounds like you learned a lot in your time in grocery.

lot in your time in grocery

and now have moved out of that.

Were there any lessons that were kind of specific to the grocery industry that

have allowed you to leverage success now in other industries?

You know, I think

and I tell I tell the agents in our office,

you know, so I tell them this.

So I tell them this. I said, you know,

I said, you know, I kind of feel like

in Johnson County, I've kind of paved my way.

I think there's probably you know,

there's people out there that don't like people being successful and and all that.

But I said at the end of the day,

But I said at the end of the day I I didn't lose any businesses.

I I didn't lose any businesses.

You know what I mean? I I you know,

I wasn't like I failed and then I'm digging clawing my way out of it.

So I've had success and and the reason I sold the grocery store,

the lessons that to answer your question,

the lessons are

Well, my boss said it, you know,

just stick and chart your course.

But he is is just a servant mentality,

a servanthood way of serving people.

I truly believe it. I've made some mistakes and made whole.

any and all of I was able cap either financial mistakes or I've done something wrong

wrong or or

And I've gone and and had to make restitution and ask for forgiveness from both

God or somebody else. 'Cause you don't know you make those mistakes and when you do,

you do it's like, okay, what would you have me do here?

You know, what do I do here? Well,

What do I do here? Well, I know what to do here 'cause the Holy Spirit just tells

I know what to do here 'cause the Holy Spirit just tells you this is what

you this is what you need to do and it's like,

Dang it, I don't want to do that But I go do it because if you do the right thing,

I don't wanna do that. You know what I mean?

But I go do it because if you do the right thing,

success comes. And so I

I that was the biggest thing and then serving our community,

I got involved heavily in our community and and it really was just

that part of things. And then also the other part of leadership is I wanted

Also, the other part of leadership is I wanted I wanted our store to

I wanted our store to be a place people wanted to come to.

I know you're getting paid and we're trading services here.

I'll pay you and you're gonna work for me.

You know, and there's a lot of those things like you know,

you know, come in at late at night.

come in late at night. We used to throw

We used to throw trucks

at night because I didn't like boxes all over the store when people were shopping.

And come in, there's one one of your night crew sleeping on a pallet of

dog food or something, you know,

and you're just like, seriously dude,

did I'm paying you

people that come in, punch in at night,

leave for four or five hours, come back and you know I mean it caught

up had cameras even. People are not that smart in in some respects.

But yeah. But I'm also I was also building put people into something.

I I figured that the grocery store wasn't their last stop.

So they should learn some lessons about something,

you know, how you grow a business.

I shared my financials, not my balance sheet,

but I s

shared my financials. So I wanted to know why I made the decisions I made.

And we had we had goals, we had bonus structures,

we had things for each department.

I managed seven people and they they hired and fired,

They did everything. But they I said I want you to learn how to

I want you to learn how to run a business within this business.

Yeah. They were responsible financially on paper for payroll,

shrink, theft, gross profit,

and that we had we had a number.

and that we had we had a number and then I capped it because I didn't want them

And then I capped it because I didn't want them just,

you know, okay, we're gonna I if I if I get this gross profit in produce,

in produce for example,

well

Well, if I raise all

my prices then I'm gonna get this growth.

Well, you can't do that because you're gonna price yourself out of the market.

So I had a cap on on that. And we managed that very differently.

But I mean, I met with these people,

didn't really have department meetings because I think they're they need

to be useful. So I just met with them one on one all the time.

And then I cross trained. the guy that I worked for in in Gillette called

me one day while I was in Buffalo and he says to me,

me one day while I was in Buffalo and he says to me So back up.

So back up, I had four people including myself that could cut me

I had four people including myself that could cut meat,

run a delay

it's easy to stock produce, make sure it's fresh and all that.

But cutting meat was always a tougher one because you that's kind of a skill set,

you know. So I had four of us in the store that could do that.

And he calls me from Riverton.

He's like, I'm hiring a guy, I gotta get a guy in in Riverton for a meat manager

and I'm interviewing a guy. Can I use your store?

I said, Sure.

He comes in and and I said, What are you doing now,

Bob? And he's like, Well, right now,

Safeway is packaging meats for us.

and we're selling and I got about a seventy five year old guy that just stocks it,

puts his our label on it. I said,

Bob, I have four people in this store that can cut meat.

He said, How do you justify training four people?

I said, How do you justify what you're doing?

You're taking in the shorts. You don't have any plan if something goes awry

You're taking it in the shorts.

You don't have any plan if something goes awry.

And so I really believed in that and I

I let them mi live and die on their own decision making.

You know, unless it was like criminal or something,

you know, let do that. But my point was is that

you know, I'm not gonna let do that.

But my point was is that

you're gonna know how to run a business when you leave here.

Yeah. And I had what was so cool about it and I really think it was cool.

I've been through bad employers and but I also think what was great

is that there was a there was this respect that I think they felt from me that,

hey, we're gonna look at the numbers.

we're gonna look at the numbers.

Here's how you handle people. How do you wanna be handled as an employee?

How do I handle you? So make sure that you're transitioning and making sure that

these people are respected.

You know, they need to know and they'd see me out sweeping out in front because

I didn't want anybody to I'm I'm above that,

you know. Yeah. No. I'll do whatever.

You know, and so that type of culture

was there. My least tenured manager in that store of those seven people

was seven years. They were they stayed.

So back to what we were talking about earlier about the culture of today.

and I hear it all the time, we just can't find staff.

Well, I I believe the owners of the businesses I'm not saying they're all wrong,

all wrong 'cause there's some businesses that are run well in town.

You probably have one yourself.

You're successful. And

I think it they have ownership.

I think I hope they just don't fold and say,

I'm gonna find somebody that fogs a mirror and put in there and I was in

And I was in I was in Sharon yesterday and stopped at a store and I'm thinking,

I'd have fired that person the second I you know I mean,

it's just there's a there's an absence or a gap there.

But I think employers need to stop and say,

Is this a place I my people want to work with?

Am I treatment fair?

I'm showing you why I make my decisions.

I can't pay you fifty dollars an hour and here's why.

but if you

hit these parameters, you can make my produce manager,

Carl, for years, I think he made forty five fifty grand a year.

fifty grand a year. But he hit his numbers all the time.

He was a carmudgeon kind of, but I mean but but he hit his numbers

and he didn't have that polish ability to polish.

but he was he always he understood it and he did it and so does some

And so did some of the Delhi people and but we lose I I got squeezed.

Well

DJ's offered me our one of our meat managers.

He offered me this, and if you match it,

I'm not leaving. Well, I'm we I talked to the owner,

I was manager,

we'll match that. Okay. Comes back the next day.

Well, they upped it, and I'm like,

Yeah, you need to go. I cut meat for two and a half weeks and I hired

I trained my own replaced store man or meat manager.

Yeah. And I just stayed with him for probably two or three months and

and we just worked it together and but everyone saw that.

one of the funnier stories my wife will attest to I fired my wife once.

once. I'm sure that went over well.

Another defining defining moment.

And the gist of that was is that I was making some decisions.

She

was working part time there and she came in,

She came in and kinda cut the legs out from under me,

was kind of siding with the employees and didn't really get the backdrop.

I said you need to punch out and go.

You're done. I'm not I can't have you doing that.

So we had of course it was intense moments of fellowship I call it.

At home. So at the end of the day,

So at the end of the day, she gets up one morning,

she gets up one morning, she's all dressed up and she comes

she's all dressed up, and she comes in.

I said, where you She says, I'm gonna go find a job.

I'm like, Okay, good for you. She comes back in the store with

a with an application, refills it out,

and we end up hiring her back part time.

Defining moment. that's good.

That's good. So that rang a bell through the rest of the step.

Holy moly, he fired his wife. I bet so.

I bet so.

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you probably know that I'm an avid reader.

Or more realistically, an avid listener.

I used to tear through multiple audiobooks per week.

I've built up a pretty substantial audiobook library.

One thing I like about Open Audible is being able to connect my Audible account

and organize my audiobook library to a local device.

I travel quite a bit and I'm often in places where there is no cell service

or internet connectivity. I like having a way to download,

manage, and take my library with me even when I'm not connected.

If you have a large audiobook library,

you should check out OpenAudible at openaudible.org.

So you you've owned and run the store for a while,

lots of ups and downs. You grew it from two million to six million.

Yeah.

why sell? So our wholesaler moved to a thing called activity based selling.

and they're out of business right now.

They got bought up. And so activity based selling in the grocery business

So activity based selling in the grocery business was the more you bought,

was the more you bought, the cheaper you got.

the cheaper you got. No different it is today.

But

the owner of the store, and I agree with him a hundred percent,

We built a very small back room because you ain't selling it out of the back room.

the back room and the labor and the damage.

And the labor and the damage. And so some store owners were building warehouses

And so some store owners were building warehouses out back of their s

out back of their st and just you know what I got green beans at

seventeen

17 cents less than you did. Yeah,

well, you got this money tied up sitting back here.

And I didn't agree. I agreed with the owner of the store.

I'm like, I and so we didn't get the best pricing.

So I went wholesale shopping. Well I've been in the grocery business since

I've been in the grocery business since I was fifteen and I knew every retailer,

I was fifteen and I knew every retailer IG

IGA

store guy in the entire Wyoming,

not the southern part of the state,

but everything on the northern.

And I called him up. I found a wholesaler out of Nebraska.

that was servicing a store in Gillette and they like,

Yeah, it was a co op kind of thing.

They waived all the fees and they were ready to roll.

So I sent a letter to Supervalue and just said,

Hey, effect of this date, we're gonna no longer be buying groceries from

you And I checked my contract with them and I'd already had time served.

Well, they freak out because I know a bunch of retailers and so they come down

and they're like, you know, I had like five of the president of

the super values there and and I know 'cause my retail counselor guy's like,

Well, they're afraid that a bunch of other stores are gonna

jump ship. Yeah. Would you sell it?

So I talked to my accountant. He's like,

throw this number at it. And they took it.

I mean I I couldn't retire or anything.

It wasn't that one. I mean it was eight hundred thousand.

So basically we basically doubled our

what I paid for at the store and I still own the building.

And so they were so they sold it to Reese and Reyes and they s they they leased from

me and covered the payment. I was making two,

I was making two, three grand

three grand

or four grand a month on the lease and well one thing I didn't think of

think of was what am I doing now?

Yeah. So I took about a month off and then I helped the buddy build a house,

which I had no business doing that in the middle of February.

But then I went to work, I never I don't think he knew this.

I went to work for a guy that owned Beehive Homes.

So I worked for him for almost two years.

And

Okay. And

how I got into farmers is just the craziest story ever,

how how that worked. 'Cause he owned some insurance companies,

some interest majority interest in a couple of insurance companies.

Although they were not captive agencies like farmers,

they were independents.

And so wild. So I'm working for him,

So wild. So I'm working for him,

traveling, he owns six of And I'm traveling the state and doing that and

And I was this chief operating officer and I worked out of his his office.

It was great. I actually loved it.

although it was sad, you know,

working in an assisted living and it was you know,

one in Buffalo was a memory care and I got stories about that.

I got stories about that. Anyway,

Anyway, sad wasn't anything I could see myself doing.

So me being me,

I was driving around

I got my hair cut there where farmers is now,

farmers is now or now it's Whitlock Services but it was farmer.

but it was farmer. And the weeds in the on the corner of Fort and Klondike were just

like this high. And I walked into the to the hair salon,

and I walked into to the hair salon I'm like I'm can I just

I'm like, I'm can I just

cut these down for you? This looks horrible.

I have nothing I was just driving my highlights I said this looks

I said, this was

so I went over there and I pulled all the weeds,

cut it down, sprayed it and killed all those stuff and and but as I was leaving,

sprayed it, killed all the stuff and and but as I was leaving I went around

I went around and I see and I remembered that he's he had talked to

how successful his insurance companies were and I was like,

And I was like, So there's this sign in the window at Farmers and I walk in and

there was a temp in there. And the guy's like

And the guy's like

or the lady's like, Yeah, I think they found an agent,

but there was a number to call.

So I called the district manager out of Casper and I told him who I was and I said,

And I said, You know, what do I I mean,

I said, I'm interested. And he said,

Well, my mother in law lives in Buffalo.

I'll be up here Sunday. He said,

But we think we have a an agent.

So he said, But I'll meet you 'cause he's looking,

Because he's looking, you know,

you know, there might be other towns and all

that. So we meet and he calls me up Monday morning.

He says, We're not taking her.

We want to take you. Well, they gave me the agency.

Had two hundred and seventy policies enforced as all.

I mean it's down to zero. And

But you had some performance requirements and these things you had to do.

Well, when I sold it we had twenty four hundred policies.

And the same thing happened with farmers.

So they came in, I'm killing it.

I'd met all my performances, had these bonuses coming in,

and then they changed their entire model,

cost me about eighteen percent in gross revenue.

Wow. And I told I said, I don't think you're gonna carry me into the future.

I'm not confident in this at all.

Find a buyer. And they did. I carry a note on this place still,

Find a buyer. I do on this place to on the business side of it.

on the business side of it. And

And

already and so the real estate I buy a real estate.

I've had a real estate. I was with Greg Smith at Caldwell 'cause me

I was with Greg Smith at Caldwell 'cause me and Trevor Moon bought some lots

and Trevor Moon bought some lots and did some spec houses up in up

and did some spec houses up in up in West Valley where I used to live.

in West Valley where I used to live.

And we built four of those spec houses.

Jan Johnson lives in one and and so me and Trevor and and Mike Moon built those.

So I first time I sold one, I'm like,

What? That's what a realtor me So I went and got my license.

What? That's what a realtor means?

So I went and got my license. Do you know what I mean?

You know what I mean? It's like so I just went and got my license.

And I wasn't a great student, Erick.

And I wasn't a great student or I mean I I mean I think it took me

I mean I I mean I think it took me

You have two phases to an insurance and you have and I think I I think

I failed the real estate exam the first time,

went back, passed it, and then I failed one part of the f insurance and I'm like,

I went through all this I am not gonna stop.

I'm I'll I'll take this a hundred times.

I'm just gonna do it. So I ended up getting those licenses and then I

put my real estate license in active for a while and then I

sold farmers. Well, actually prior to selling farmers,

because of what they did, I got hooked up with three hundred seven real estate

out of Cody and opened up and started going.

It was great. And farmers came in,

they were upset I was operating two businesses out of one.

They couldn't do anything about it.

They couldn't do anything about it but he he kind of maybe saw the writing

But he he kind of maybe saw the writing on the wall 'cause he knew

on the wall 'cause he knew I was frustrated and I was looking for somebody

to buy the

the agency. And it was in a good spot.

I mean, it was the highest PIF they call it policies in force

that they had for quite a long,

long time. I think their highest was like eighteen hundred policies and

and it was great. I mean I love that 'cause the same thing.

I always I I love Liberty Mutuals commercials.

Just buy what you need. Yeah. And I'd show my policy and say,

here's what this means and all this stuff.

And and and so anyway we we took off.

We were growing quite well. And then I just felt like

I I told them, I said, Just if if you're this far out of touch with the agents,

I can't even imagine how far out of touch you are with the clients.

I know we service clients.

And I always hired I always hired and I used the line of credit to

get farmers going because I I knew if I was out selling I need someone handling

the back office. And so that's a that's just a lesson I believe.

Same thing in real estate. Abigail works for me now part time that I just if I'm out

running and I'm bringing it in,

she's handling all the paperwork and making sure things are timelines and

or C R programs and all these things that are working.

But I always plan for growth. And a lot of people can't.

You know, so I went to Farmers University

and there were ninety eight people in our class after I took over the agency

and all that. I had to go spend a week in LA and

and a couple of years later I called my teacher,

we became friends and I said, How many of how many people out of the class?

He said, There's two of you that are still agents.

Wow.

You and one other out of ninety eight people.

I said, Well, you guys got a glitch in your system because what happens

is is people try to save themselves under prosperity.

They don't in other words, y you get an agent and you go work maybe

at your district office or somebody and you're and you don't have any money,

I get it, I get it, and you're trying to do the and you're trying to do it all.

But if you're gonna manage growth,

you're not gonna be able to do it all and service them well on the back

end on claims and all of those things.

You're just not gonna be able to handle that well.

And so,

in my mind I was like, I can't do this alone so I just I have I've always kept

In my mind I was like, I can't do this alone.

So I just I had a I've always kept a line of credit

a line of credit.

it and pay it off, use it, pay it off,

but it's at least it sustained me while it was and I recommend that.

I reck you gotta have a you gotta have something that weather's a storm.

You gotta have some way of financially,

you know, being able to s if you have a glitch in your life,

to be able to say, Okay, I don't like doing this but I can still function,

but I can still function, you know,

and move forward, still pay my staff and still take care of I didn't take

I didn't take a check out of farmers for three years.

live I lived on the line of credit.

wow. I lived on a left road.

But nobody ever not got paid, I promise.

You just gotta take care

of And she's a rock star. She I I wish she she she actually I told

her she could get in to real estate.

She's with a different firm. just had a baby,

but she's just trustworthy and and took good care of her.

Every time I bonused out, I always comp my staff and then I end up with another part

time person as we were growing so much.

It was great. It was but then I just like I say,

I just right now is it's great.

I don't have a sta I don't have staff.

I have ten ninety nine people.

But we work so well, same culture applies.

so well same culture applies. I want them to want to come here and help them

I want them to wanna come here and help get where they need to go and

get where they need to go and and we have offices now with RE/MAX.

and we have offices now with RE/MAX.

We have an office here, hopefully soon in Sheridan,

one in Grable Basin area, one in Alpine Thane,

One in Grable Basin area, one in Alpine Thane and then our main office is in Cody.

and then our main office is in Cody.

Okay. So we have like fourteen agents right now.

Yeah. So when you when you took over the farmers agency,

you said you had two hundred and fourteen policies,

grew that to twenty four hundred.

were you able to

cash out when you s sold that?

Cash you sold that? that come through for you?

Did did that come through for you?

So what I had invested on my line of credit I got up front.

Okay. But the difference I carried in note and it's some personal guarantees.

with the current owner. And he just he can pay it off any time,

time although it's hard with the interest rates today so he just pays

although it's hard with the interest rates today.

So he just pays me every month and I have like say,

me every month and I have like say so it's just there's a common theme

so it's just there's a common theme,

I believe in all of that. You know,

I I don't I don't think I'm just this entrepreneurial guy that just

got it figured out. I

In essence, I in some respects I do,

but it's not it's not void of the relational part of how I feel a business should

be conducted. You know, these people aren't below me,

they're none of that.

What's your goals? What do you need to do?

How do I get you to where you need to go?

And we have a great agent in our office,

a couple of right now, and and

he's been there a couple of years,

he's kind of fizzling out of his other work.

He's got back issues. He was a contractor and so he's doing well and

we have great conversations and we just But you just take care of folks seriously.

of folks seriously and just that's it.

Just that's it. I mean really and it's not about you.

I mean really and you're it's not about you.

I think people just introspectively gotta evaluate themselves and say,

Okay, am I part of the problem?

Yeah. Especially from an employer standpoint.

Am I part of the issue? And I ask my people from IGA all the way to current.

what do you see I'm doing wrong here?

Or what do you tell me? And you're not you're you're not gonna I'm

I'm never gonna get mad. I'm looking at it from a a place of I'm just one brain.

I'm just one brained.

I might miss something. Yeah. And so we have all these just not all the time,

but we get together most every morning just talk about our issues

and things that are going on, address things that need to be addressed,

talk through certain situations 'cause in real estate,

'cause in real estate, you know,

you know, these contractual things sometimes get a little dicey.

And I and I'll be honest, I tell people all the time I hate realtors and I am one.

And I and I'll be honest, I tell people all the time I hate realtors and I

I mean, it's just it over the years,

am one I mean it's just it over the years if you Google the

if you Google the top ten most disrespected businesses,

it's in there. Yeah. In the top ten.

And it's like I I've told a couple of realtors,

I'm gonna be the change you see in this industry just 'cause I just think that

one quick s farmer story and it alludes to what I'm talking about,

which is I I insured a guy had a classic car and I had a I had a

in a contract with Haggerty. Well,

when I put the information in,

I classified it as a car, he classified it as a or the s co company classified

it as a truck. So the premium went up about seventy dollars for the year.

So

So I wrote a check, went to his house and said,

and said, I'm sorry, I I this is what happened and I'm paying for your first year,

but just know it's gonna be what it is next year,

but this is on me.

but it this is on me.

Customer for life. Yeah. Yeah.

I'd be a customer for life. You know what I mean?

I'd be a customer for life if I had somebody taking care of me like that.

And I had another insurance guy who walked in and I said,

Hey, you know, I just want a shot

at earning your business. He's like,

You're the first blankety blank insurance guy?

Yes, you can quote my stuff. Got all his insurance.

He said, Nobody walks in the door and and just asks for a shot.

Yeah. I'm I'm not I'm not a freaky aggressive guy,

but I I'd say it's just a it's a consistent boom boom boom.

I've had a wonderful year in real estate this year.

And

And I swear it's just do the best by your clients and own your stuff.

Own your mistakes and do you know and it happens a lot.

You know that. Heck fire, you get something going and anyway.

I think that's good advice for life,

not just for business, is take care of people,

do the right thing, own your stuff.

Yeah. Success is gonna follow.

And except you know, I remember leaving

IGA, walking out the door going,

turning around and going, Okay,

how much time did I just

totally piss away today and evaluating.

And now with technology and all that stuff,

it's really easy to get captured on,

you know, this stuff, you know.

Yeah. And so you gotta manage that at a level.

And so I live and die out of my calendar.

I mean, if it's anything like bring home a loaf of bread or you

got this contract due and whatever,

it is there. I wake up in the morning,

read my Bible. Didn't this morning because it started earlier.

My cousin was anyway, long story.

and I live.

at my calendar and the other thing I I think is vital is there's a

lot of things that I learned this a long time ago and it's a great little story.

it's a great little story. there's a lot of things in a day that you just

there's a lot of things in a day that you just what

what we talked about earlier, you don't wanna do.

They're hard, they may be a hard conversation or it might be just like owning your

stuff. And so you gotta, you know,

put your tail between your legs and go do the best you can by that situation.

And so that that part of my life has been boom,

just go do it. Just hit it, just hit head on.

Just hit head on,

Just

just do and knock out, 'cause then g they're gonna be there tomorrow,

Just do them and knock them out.

Cause they ain't gonna they're gonna be there tomorrow.

So it ain't going away. And so the story I was gonna tell you,

I learned years ago. It was a guy that

a guy was a business consult consult and this guy had a steel corporation

and he said he hired this guy,

he hired this guy, he said, We're losing this is a true story,

he said, We're losing, and this is a true story,

I guess, we're losing money and and I don't know what to do.

So the guy spent two or three days looking at his operation and turns

and turns out that the owner was the problem.

Didn't have

any tactical way of and they avoided everything hard.

And so nothing got addressed. And so

he told the guy, he said, here's what you do.

You t you write the top six things that you have to do,

good or bad, prioritize them by time frame or prioritize them by whatever.

But you do not leave until those six things are done.

Period. You just if you're here till midnight,

you're doing And if you by some reason can't get the six done,

that is your first priority in the morning.

So this guy does that because he's floundering in his business.

And the guy comes in and he says,

W what do I owe you? And the consultant said,

You pay me what it's worth at the end of this year.

And the guy wrote him a check for like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars because

it was priceless, turned his company around.

He didn't know it was him. 'Cause nobody also doesn't like to own own their stuff.

you know, it's a hard thing for people to learn.

And from a faith base, it's like you're always looking at yourself going

going,

God, what do I need to be doing here?

I mean, I need some help or some advice.

I need I mean and really seeking to be better at what you're doing.

I am way far from infallible, but and the I and my wife told me one time when

I had farmers, she said, You know,

you drive those people crazy in there 'cause I'm a I'm a buzzy kind of guy.

guy and I very seemingly unorganized

organized except for in a calendar.

except for in a calendar, the things that are priorities I gotta do.

said, Well they have options, they can leave.

They can leave. And I asked him,

And I asked him, I walked in the morning.

I said, I know you guys had a good conversation with my wife.

I said,

No, we've learned to speak Mark.

We've learned to you know, I had a couple employees.

We've learned to speak Mark and and I said,

You you know, if if you're unhappy,

you know, we had this deeper conversation.

I said, I don't want you to be unhappy.

No, we got it. It's just that you're very busy minded and a very busy blur oop,

saw a shiny object. There you go.

Borderline ADHD, a whole nother story.

But I also think in some respects it's a super powerful life I'm in because I don't

in because I don't

get hung up on I don't get in the weeds on things.

I don't have a lot of drama in that respect.

drama in that respect. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just like boom boom boom boom boom.

Get your stuff done. Do the best you can.

Take care, folks. Good philosophy.

So is there an opinion or a belief that you once held strongly

Is there an opinion or a belief that you once held strongly and you've changed based

and you've changed based on your breadth of experiences?

on your breadth of experiences?

Yeah, it's kind of a trust in God and lock your doors.

So an example I had the temp that was in farmers insurance.

we had a cash box, had seventy five dollars in it.

Well it didn't supposed to. Had like fifty.

And so I took out a little piece of paper and a ledger and just said,

Hey, if you need to borrow money for lunch or whatever,

you write every penny down. You gotta buy stamps,

you write it down and she looks at me and says,

Well, you don't trust me and I'm like,

Well, I don't now. You should you know,

you should be grateful that I'm running

this on here instead it makes me think that maybe that seventy five dollars came

from you, you know. And she didn't stick around too too long.

But I'm just saying I would be grateful that someone had those controls in place.

Because it's eliminating any opportunity for theft in that respect

or dishonesty or whatever. So you're eliminating that's what I learned through that

whole IGA experience is that I you I learned to eliminate the issues,

the top fifteen items that Supervalue gave me.

We addressed all of those. And then I end up counseling some people in town,

some businesses that were losing and

And everybody trusts. They trust.

And but I think you trust but you also hold accountable.

that's good stuff. So y you mentioned earlier you know,

you know, when you sold the store,

when you sold the store, it came kinda unexpected,

it came kind of unexpected, happened fast,

happened fast, and you woke up one day and realized you had not thought what

what do I do now? Where do I go next?

do I do? Where do I go next? I mean w what was it like to

I mean, what what was it like to

Process that was was that kind of a hit to your identity?

Were you the the guy with the store that everybody knew and talked

to and connected that way? Did did you have to reinvent yourself or what

did that look like?

I think I didn't realize how much I would miss that stuff.

I didn't miss the people part and and I'm always in the mindset of our

right, how do I help somebody?

How can I how can I, you know,

how do I be

You know, I told our staff all the time at IJ,

you may be the only smile these people see and they better see one today,

and they better see one today.

you know? And they write your paycheck.

I don't. What they what they do is have our check.

So it was tough because it was tough because then it's like,

man, I didn't think through that.

What now what? And then I was talking to my accountant,

you know, I had enough money there to for a while I could just,

you know, s not do anything so I took up like a month off and just kind of

res But I realized being who I am that I can't I can't just sit the house

at the house and play golf or you know what I mean?

I can't I can't do that. That's not who I am.

That's not who I am and so I was talking to my accountant about it and he's like,

And so I was talking to my accountant about it and he's like,

Well I just I need some help with these beehive homes.

Would you want to come work? I'm like,

I gotta do something, man. I got I can't I said,

something I got I c I said great so that was fun too it was fun from

Great. And so that was fun too.

It was fun from the business side building something.

the business side building something I Peggy Drew you remember Peggy

I ha Peggy Drew, you remember Peggy?

she passed away she had this crazy woman water yeah and she was trying yeah

so she was trucking that God rest her soul she was trucking that all

she was trucking that all the way to Idaho,

the way to Idaho with the water out of this Madison River Bane and so she had like

the water out of this Madison River vein.

And so she had like

a dollar and

s was it sixty cents for a twenty ounce bottle.

That was her cost because she's spanning.

And so I got her hooked up with Admiral Beverage and and her or no,

I'm sorry, it was 78 cents. It was her cost.

I'm sorry, it was seventy-eight cents.

It was her cost. And I went over to sh to Warland talked to know the guys from

And I went over to sh to Warland,

talked another guys from IGA days,

my GA days and I'm like, what can you bottle her water?

And

they had Aqua Vista and they were pulling out of the same vein of water.

Well

Peggy was funny because she's I can tell the difference.

So one day at my office I line up all these waters and I'm like,

You tell me which one's yours,

you know. I said, It's not that different.

It's not that different. I'm just saying,

I'm just saying, you're you're from a marketing standpoint.

So her bottle cost went from seventy eight cents to twenty six cents.

Wow. But she didn't want to. I was trying to I introduced her to wholesalers

and all that, but she was throwing it on a trailer and a hollowing pallets

of water over the mountain. Anyway,

just different business thoughts.

But so I did that in the meantime because

because

she was also my accountant's client.

And so he's like, just take this on and let's just dig into this thing

and get the total raw, raw cost of this trucking cost,

this trucking cost.

packaging costs. It was and anyway it didn't it you can't do it yourself.

You know I mean you gotta if you're gonna expand like that you g you gotta have

you get you gotta have a plan.

a plan. I told her that all the time and she's like well I like going

No, I like going and meeting these people,

and meeting these people, drop a ballot here,

drop up out here, drop you know,

whatever. It was just wild. But she s did see the twenty six versus seventy eight

six versus seventy eight cents,

cents, you know, and so and that was awesome.

Yeah, that's

significant.

So we talked a little bit about the the embezzling scandal and

and the significant hit that that was.

maybe apart from that, what mistake did you make that cost you the most money?

I would say I'm not a big proponent of partners anymore.

I believe I and and not that I don't think that that

Okay.

can work. I really think it can.

But I think someone the the buck has to stop somewhere and all parties need

think someone the the buck has to stop somewhere and all parties need to know that.

to know that. They it you have to be able to say,

They it you have to be able to say,

Okay, there's some guy that's got his neck on the line,

even though financially you might be linked together or and all that,

but someone has to be able to solve an impasse.

Mm. You know what I mean? So,

I have a partner now. I'm a min

a minority owner of RE/MAX, but it he lives over in Cody's brilliant,

He lives over in Cody's brilliant,

brilliant dude. I mean, unbelievable.

He sold the company at like thirty seven for over I think over a hundred million.

I mean he was he was the country's largest private he had renter's warehouse

and built it up just smart. Harvard grad retired seven years after that,

I think is when he got we got hooked up with RE/MAX.

We and there were three of us and then we ended I ended up buying

out the second partner and and but we're good.

We're we're humming

the r the we're over our goals at RE/MAX as a company.

Very vi I wish I had a part of his brain because my gosh,

it's amazing how some people think.

You know what I mean? It's like wha how do you even do that?

You know what I mean? Very brilliant,

very super smart guy. And and we're on a good trajectory right now.

Wanna s wanna grow, wanna build,

got great systems in place. So

I would have never been able to do that.

One of the things that happened when I left three seven real estate that

was an education too, the guy that I'm really good friends with still am today,

am today, they got sideways over there.

they got sideways over there. They were the main partners and I

They were the main partners and I was basically a partner on just

was basically a partner on just the Buffalo office and we were cruising long,

the Buffalo office and we were cruising along,

I was doing really well and and so they get in an argument and they he buys him out.

he buys him out. Well I ended up going with f going with the guy that left.

He's my friend,

he's a good Christian guy and I just

So we started this thing and we got into some 'cause I've never you know,

I don't I don't have that brain for tech and all that and I'm like he's like

And I'm like he's like, We we got a big argument time and I'm like,

I don't know what to do here, man.

I the immediately w that next day when I heard they were severing it,

I scheduled broker

classes and went to got my broker's license 'cause I got I gotta control

my own destiny here. I can't I mean I could go hang a shingle with anybody,

but I was like, No, that's not I really like I really like the art of the deal.

You know, I read that when I was younger.

Yeah.

Donald Trump's book and and just just I like that stuff.

I like trying to make things happen and I like I like the the busyness when COVID

hit. I was by myself with 307 real estate and the lid blew up.

I called one of my other friends,

Bill Joy. I'm like, Bill, get your license.

I'm like, Bill, get your license.

I need some help here. And so he went and got his license.

I got a picture of him holding his license.

And he helped me for like six months.

I got a picture of him holding his license,

and he helped me for like six months.

don't want to work this hard. He's happy to be riding

He retired, and then he's like

I don't wanna work this hard. He said I'd be riding on a horse and then

on a horse and then my phone's blowing up because I was handing him

my phone's blowing up because I was handing him all these deals and he's working

all these deals and he's been working his own deals and I mean

his own deals and I mean it got crazy during COVID.

it crazy during COVID. You know that.

You know that. And and the lid came off.

Yeah.

Huh So

So you mentioned earlier, you advocate for having a a line of credit,

just to have flexibility. You know,

you know, life happens. The the business goes up and down,

there's good seasons, poor seasons,

you gotta reinvent the store, reinvent yourself,

reinvent yourself, reinvent your career.

are are you pretty comfortable living on that line of credit or has there been

of credit or has there been a push to

a push to

become your own banker and and have the capital to be able to do that without

the That's kinda where I'm at now,

the debt relationship? That's kinda where I'm at now where I'd like

to you know we're like saying

we're like I say I'm coming

off of a going into this year a great year.

had a had a lot of stuff in the hopper at the end of last year

and then January and February were giant for me as far as real estate sales

as far as real estate sales and had some really you know,

and had some really you know, one,

one, two, three million dollar deals happen all in that

like a forty five day period of time.

So it really vaulted me there.

but I also I also probably don't have a great balance.

I don't work all the time. My wife would tell you differently,

but you know, in this business,

but you know, in this business when the phone rings you're you know

when the phone rings you're you know,

and it's something I think she's gotten used to.

I don't think she likes any more than she did before but

but

but things happen. People you answer when,

But things happen. People you answer when you know and I try to be good about

you know, and I try to be good about my time.

my time

And managing that and I tell clients that and I'm like,

Yeah, you know, here's the deal.

If you don't need me on a Sunday,

don't or whatever. I try to manage that and balance that some,

but it's it's difficult because it's but the benefits of it are you know,

you know, I guide hunters in the fall for TJ.

I get to control my schedule, you know,

like today my my daughter's getting married in September and we're doing kind

of a golf

bachelor party with a bunch of his buddies this afternoon.

and so the reason I have a little more time today is because we were gonna

go at like one, we're gonna meet for lunch.

Well then they're having a J V golf tournament and that worst case we're gonna start

worst case we're gonna start at three,

at three. I think we're gonna be able to start like two.

So I ended up with a little extra time because it was like,

so I ended up with a little extra time because it was like I didn't know that,

I I didn't know that, you know.

you know. So anyway, my daughter's getting married,

super, super happy. My son moved back here.

We've got two grandkids. It's just awesome.

I love those guys.

And they bought a place here and he works in Great Balls right now.

And anyway, it's just it's just we build a nice home.

I love it. It's super nice.

I'm no I still need to work. Not not you know,

Not not you know, I'm not I mean if I liquidated I could probably

sit

Sit it out for a while, but I'm not,

you know. Yeah. I like it and and I just feel blessed.

That's awesome. How do teach contentment?

How do you teach contentment? That's a question I've asked myself.

That's a question I've got myself.

How do you teach people to be content in life or to ha or to feel like

you live a blessed life?

Yeah. It's a choice, and that's probably another whole topic is that

we all have choices, and I think some folks look at things where you know,

you know, there's just it's bestowed upon me and there's nothing I can do about it.

Well, I'm an advocate of

gosh, that didn't work, go left.

Ooh, that didn't work. Well, we might have to climb over now.

You know, I mean you just find the s solution.

yeah. And make decisions. Because that's hard.

I I think after about age thirty,

you're responsible for the life that you have.

You know, like you said, we all make choices and none of us are born

a hundred percent equal. Some of us are better looking and some of us have to

work hard in that area. or give it up and it's just not gonna happen.

work hard in that area, you know.

it like it it's not just the the race that you were born or the family

It's not just the the race that you were born or the family you were born into

you were born into or the money that you did or didn't have.

Like we're all different. We have different abilities,

different skills. you know, things come naturally.

Some of us have the A D D. Other people can focus really well.

And so, you know, I I always equate it to playing cards.

You know, y you don't get to pick the cards that you're dealt,

but you can

fold and complain about having a crummy hand and just accept life the

way that it is. Or you can pick up the cards that you've got and play to

the best of your ability. You can bluff.

You know, y yeah, you might not have a royal flush,

but you know, you get to make choices,

you get to turn some cards in,

you get to draw some new ones.

Do what you can to build the best hand that you can.

Yeah. A hundred percent. And you know And you know,

And you know, some of our adversities,

some of our adversities, I mean,

they were s they were real, real,

real. Yeah. I mean painful.

real. Like I you know, and then watching God in that and and how he's helped

and and even when I've just been foolish when it comes to my relationship with

the him in many op you know what I mean?

You know what mean? You know, you've gotta be intentional.

The other part is you gotta be intentional about your life.

You know, you c y you can wake up and hope nothing happens or you can wake

up and help make something hap happen in in a good way.

Yeah, in a good way. Yeah. Just help people like you say I I think I naturally

You know. Just help people, like I say.

It's I I think I naturally am am that way.

am in that way. I'm I'm not necessarily no,

I'm I'm not necessarily a no, I need everybody to please me kinda or to

I need everybody to please me kinda or to

be you know, be happy with me.

you know, be happy with me. I don't you know I'd rather respect me than like me.

Mm-hmm. May not like me, but you're gonna respect the fact I told you.

I told you. And that happens a lot in my world.

I mean, conversations over the weekends like,

you know,

real estate deal, tr you know,

I got trustees, three different coexecutor type things,

and

and sometimes you just gotta say the hard things,

you know, and and I tell them up front,

And I tell up front, you're not gonna like what I have to say.

you're not gonna like what I have to say.

But there's no denying that I'm not gonna tell you what I think 'cause that's what

you hired me for. So if you don't like that maybe I'm not a good fit.

maybe I'm not a good fit. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Be willing and be willing to stand on a principle and like say when you're

when you're a person of faith,

a person of faith, that's the standard.

And so now when it comes to the ethics of your life and the moral credibility

you have, that's huge. that's huge moving forward and I know there's people

And I know there's people out there that may

out there that

May or may not they have their own opinions but I always qualify every conversation

or may not they have their own opinions,

but I always qualify every conversation when somebody comes up,

somebody comes up. Did you hear about this?

Well I I got your side of it, but I haven't heard that side of it.

So I fail to render an opinion at this point.

Because I don't know the whole story.

Yeah. And nor if I talk to the people you're talking about.

So I'm just

Yeah.

not gonna resonate with that and you hear it enough times there's probably some

truth, but but it's not a

It's not an avenue I'm gonna die on,

you know what I mean? It's not anything I'm just I'm not gonna go there.

Yeah.

I had a situation

at IGA one time with a really good friend.

Or a guy came in every day, bought a pack of cigarettes and and I ran into

him at church and you know, I didn't know this,

but ran into him at church on Easter and I never ever seen him at church.

and I was just joking around and I'm like,

Well, I'm hope rafters are good,

you know, and this split the roof doesn't fall in 'cause you came to church

and I was just joking.

He comes in the store the next morning and he puts his nose on my nose

and goes off on me about who who do you think you are?

Turns out that there was some he he at one point had tried to become

a pastor and and whatever was going on in his life,

I didn't know that. So I sat down and it and it and it was like,

He's I'm never coming in here again and he said,

I can't believe you you know and I was like,

Wow, that went south in a hurry.

So I r type up this letter and I was gonna mail it to him.

It was like four days later. And had an envelope,

stuffing it in there, and then I thought,

you know what?

I went to his place of business or his work.

It wasn't a place of business.

Well, everything is, but it wasn't.

And and I tapped on his door and I said,

You got a minute? And he's like,

Yeah. Sit down. I said I was gonna mail you this letter,

but I just wanna read it to you.

And I'm so sorry. I I promise you I had no intention of offending you.

you. That was not my deal. I don't know what happened.

Well he opens up and tells me in this whole story about what happened and and he was

going in to be a pastor and didn't get into the weeds on it.

And I said, But I what I want you to know is that I am here

to restore the relationship.

If you don't want to do that, I understand that.

I'm and I'll be saddened by it.

But I've known you forever. You come in every morning and I said,

I just need you to know what I meant and and went by this,

you know, what I I had n no idea and I'm It's hard to argue with an apology.

you know, what I I had no idea and I'm sorry.

It's hard to argue with an apology.

Yeah. Yeah.

Humility goes a long way. And That's happened twice in my

life where that where that happened.

I didn't back somebody that thought I should because it got to the point where

should because it got to the point where I thought from a from

I thought from a from an integrity standpoint and a transparency standpoint

an integrity standpoint and a transparency standpoint I couldn't.

I couldn't.

And I and so then the s relationship went away.

Same thing. Called and can I come to your home?

Met with him and his wife and just said same exact terminology.

I'm here, we've been friends for twenty years and done so many things.

We traveled together. And if that's the extent of our relationship because

I can't have my own opinion about what you're doing,

I'll walk away sad. But just know I valued our relationship a lot more than that,

and I hope you do too. Yeah. Tough one.

tough one.

I love that. I think that's you were talking about cultural changes.

I think that's something that I see changing a lot is a a

ten year relationship, a twenty year relationship,

there's a value in that that I don't think should be thrown away lightly.

it

It it takes a lot of time to to get to know someone on that level and

it it's an investment to build that kind of relationship.

And someone that knows you that well I think should have some freedom

to have their own opinions to be able to speak into your life a little

bit and it it's not something that should be discarded lightly.

Well and narcissism's the real thing.

In other words,

You know, my my sister told me it one time and it we say it a lot in our

You know, my mom's my mom's the oldest of eight and so she's like my sister says,

Well mom, you're entitled to your own opinion as long as it's hers.

Well there's people out there that are that way and my I don't see her that way.

see her that way. I t I text my mom or talk to my mom twice a day.

She's lost her husband and her second husband and and lives by herself

and Cody and my siblings live there,

which is great. And they've kind of stepped up and done or helping her

a ton and 'cause I'm I live the farthest away.

a ton and 'cause I'm I live the part of this way.

But I get the to do list, you know,

But I get the to do list. Which is great because I love

over and help her. I don't see her often enough.

But she's a wonderful lady and just anyway,

but I it it it got way better and then it just didn't,

and but again I felt amiss if I didn't say what I saw.

You know, what I would be wrong if I didn't tell you why I can't be

be in your camp anymore. Yeah.

in your camp anymore. Yeah. And it's a hard it was a hard decision.

And it's a har it was a hard decision.

But again, I I walked away and I told him it's like a ping pong match.

I just hit it over the net to you,

and you know my heart, you know where I'm at in this.

I want to continue our relationship.

But if you don't, I'll be sad walking out of here.

That's on you. But just know where I'm coming from.

That's on you. But just know where I'm coming from and and it's gotten way better.

And and it's gotten way better.

It just took time. me. That's a great approach.

And but okay, apply that thought pattern to business.

Think about that. So I had a lady one time at

IGA and she had a cane. She parks and she lives on a ranch,

two stories here, but one of And her car was completely covered

And her car was completely covered but the windshield with turkey crap.

but the windshield with turkey crap.

And

She she couldn't somebody was in the handicap parking.

She had a sticker. So I said, Hey,

I helped her get in the in the store and got her into the little wheeled cart thing.

thing. And I said, Give me your keys.

And I said, Give your keys, I'm gonna move you when that car leaves,

I'm gonna move your car. Well,

I took it down to the car wash,

spent twelve dollars washing this car off and come back,

park it in the handicap spot, and she comes out and she's and I said,

Just

don't

don't park under the tree anymore.

park under the tree anymore. I was just but my point my point is is that

I was but my point my point is is that

you're looking I I I feel lucky because I I do look for opportunities you know

You know, to be able to I can't do everything,

to be able to I can't do everything but I can sure maybe attribute to that.

but I can sure maybe attribute to that.

You know, help there. Maybe a little bit of my time.

You know, I've helped a guy paint their house twice.

They had no money. Brought in the Mormon missionaries one time and brought

in a guy that's in rehab another time and got this house painted for them

and they could only afford the paint.

Yeah. You know what I mean?

Just

And a great friend, an old friend,

his wife worked at the Y and we sat down,

I was working out a lot then and sit down five days a week and and I called

him the king and he's just he was in his seven late early eighties.

Anyway, he passed away. But I mean,

Anyway, he passed away. But I mean I just still want to help their family

I just still want to help their family or do what I can do to help.

or do what I can do to help and so I find opportunities in that.

And so I find opportunities in that.

one of my other friends happens to be my accountant and he's like,

he's like, You gotta learn to say no.

I said, I I do say no, but I also evaluate where there's something I can do.

And I think those morals and those ethics and business

are like, I just wanna do the right thing as best I can.

If you're gonna hold me to an infallible status,

I may not be your fit, but here's what I can offer you.

And just know I'm gonna do my best to honor my side of this.

You know. Just a it's a great way to live a business life as well,

in my opinion, as well as a personal life.

Yeah. That was part of our mission statement,

Yeah, that was a part of our mission statement with my business was that

with my business was that we are there to help people and you know

we are there to help people. And you know,

primarily we did that through roofing,

but all my

My guys knew, you know, if you if you show up to solve a roofing problem

and they have another problem that you're capable of solving,

we're just gonna help you. Lend a hand.

Take care of it for you know, we don't go,

it's not your roof that's leaking,

it's the windows. Right. hey,

it's the windows. We go, hey, actually it's it's not your roof,

we caught this it's not your roof,

it is the windows, but we know how to fix that too.

So we took care of it for you.

Right.

you know, I think helping people goes a long way.

goes a long way. And

And

when you help people, like you said,

if you focus on helping people,

that's when the money comes. Well

and also you're just not caught up on all the problems in your life.

You know, there's people that and again it's a choice.

I believe it's a choice. And I don't think a lot of people think that,

but I think it's I think it's a choice.

How am I gonna look at that? Woe is me.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I think it hampers success in business.

I think it hampers a lot of things.

But if you have a

Hey, you know, two things. hey,

I I I believe in profit as much as the next guy.

I you know, I want to be successful,

yeah, and we all still have our own lives to live.

Yeah. And I want to be successful and

but I also don't want to do it at the expense of someone.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think real profit,

lasting profit, is it's the result of helping people.

And it has zero to do with money.

I if you're gonna do it at the expense of somebody,

I if you're gonna do it at the expense of somebody,

you might succeed for a little while.

I mean there's shysters that

But they're a flash in a pan, they're here and gone,

it never lasts. people figure it out and they stop coming back and you can see it.

And you can see it and and I I like it.

Mm-hmm. And I like I told

you earlier, I swear, I think that some of these newer agents come

in and they're like, golly, you know,

it's just I finally got a lead and I'm gonna sell a thirty thousand dollar lot.

to sell a thirty thousand dollar lot.

Well, every little drip fills the bucket and you gotta if it everybody which there's

a lot of people especially in COVID tried to you know,

tried to, you know, golly, we're gonna get in the real estate business because

but

Is it a long sustaining thing or is that I just wanna get some money right

now and and but there but the principles around being successful long term

are exactly what you said. You gotta have something that people buy

and they may think I'm just lying.

There's people out there that may not even like who I am.

That's fine. I get that. But I'm still not gonna alter my course for those people.

I'm gonna still try to do the best I can and fully knowing I'm gonna fail.

Yeah. And what do you learn the most from?

You don't learn you know, you don't think about the wins as much as

you think about dang it. I went through that.

Ha

And that that's painful and but but you learn lessons,

like I say, after the the embezzling and all of that and you put these principles

in place and you monitor it and you evaluate it and you hold people accountable with

to those standards, you're making them better whether they know it or not.

And like I say, I'd seven people.

Yeah. I had seven people, I want you to understand how to run a business.

I want you to understand how to run a business.

I don't want you to just get paid for me and do a job.

I've you know, I had a kid one time I

I had a kid one time and he

sitting by you know, 'cause on a time clock back in the day where he clicked,

sitting by, you know, 'cause on a time clock back in the day where he click click,

you know, our our our employee guidelines book instead of our employee manual said

that every seven, you know, if you're seven and a half minutes,

you're gonna roll to the top of the hour in this particular case.

So he's sitting there waiting for the clock to change so he gets the seven

So he gets the seven and a half minutes and I said,

Well one of us we've got a problem here.

I've agreed to pay you and you've agreed to work and one of us is dropping the ball.

And this is and I pulled him in the office and we had a conversation.

This is my this is my expectations.

This is my this is my expectations and I'm not a bad guy.

And I'm not a bad guy. I have a huge open door policy.

I have a huge open door policy.

huge. and let me help let me help you,

huge. and let me help let me help you,

I I'm for laziness. I'm paying you.

but I I'm not gonna stand for laziness.

Yeah. So I expect you to earn on stage,

I'm paying you. Yeah. So I expect you to earn a honest day's wage.

which pretty easy. So o of those people that you put

Pretty easy. So o of those people that you put in those seven positions to

in those seven positions to

kind of run a business within a business.

do you know how many of have gone to run businesses of their own?

I think o yeah. yeah.

I think there's probably only about three.

One's currently still doing it.

and that's a great feeling. And I know the owner of the store,

same as me, when he's seen seen me continue and he knew the challenges

I had with embezzling and you know,

losing a store and all this stuff.

And being able to

you know, pull up your boots and go back at it and keep doing that.

I think that means a lot. I really hope people don't think,

think, you know, this guy, you know,

you know, this guy, you know, most people don't get the story like

most people don't get the story like we were talking about.

we were talking about. It's just like,

It's just like you knew what I knew and what we went through and

and the challenges that we faced and then the ability to rebound

the challenges that we faced and then the ability to rebound we were moments away

and understand that, man, we were moments away from a bad day.

from a bad day. there's a lot of education in that.

it there's a lot of education in that.

I Dave Ramsey likes to say that you work your butt off

for twenty

twenty years to become an overnight success.

A hundred percent. That is so true.

They see the end of the story and must be nice to be that guy and he must have

had something I didn't have. I could never do that.

I could never do that. Must be nice.

Must be nice. And they don't see the hundred and twenty hour weeks.

They don't see working for the bad boss.

They don't see getting money to make that payment one minute before the deadline.

borrowing and borrowing and borrowing and stacking off of your lines

borrowing and borrowing and borrowing.

Or you're right at the top of your lines of credit and you're like,

and you're actually

Where am I going? you know, that happened

at Farmers. It's like, gee. So that's when I said,

you know, I mean there's times you're you're like living on a credit card as well.

You know, you're just but I guess I I I I hope it's not arrogance.

I just hope it's confidence that I just believe in I believe and I've watched

it happen over time. the long term commitment and knowing it's not a

Dave Ramsey's statement like that,

you're right. And and knowing that I had a goal,

this is where we're gonna go, and we're gonna do it the best we can,

and we're gonna do it by honoring people and helping them get where they need

to go if they're employees or even customers.

What do you need? Had a lady, real quick story,

comes in, she lives on a ranch between here and KC,

sick, gets chicken, gets stuff,

she says, I'm gonna go and make soup,

calls me up at a ranch and says,

The chicken's bad. I'll be right there.

There

took all of her money back, went back out to the ranch,

cut up the chicken, helped her make her soup.

And I am so sorry

that that I mean, I it was prepackaged,

you know, I mean I couldn't help that.

It wasn't like we made our own or whatever.

made our own or whatever. Maybe maybe we did,

Maybe maybe we did. I don't remember.

I don't remember. But anyway my point is is that I didn't want to impose on her.

She took all that she drives, you forty five,

forty five, fifty miles round trip and can't do what she needed to do

and she's not feeling well. Yeah.

Some of the clients at IGA, you know,

Pete Duby's a wonderful friend of mine and he

He

you know he had the option of business.

And I asked his wife was tough.

I mean she was getting, you know,

tough as far as you know. So I would all of a sudden I call Admiral Beverages

and I'm like, hey, you know, I'm guiding too.

And I'm like, how do I get how do I get to sell you groceries?

You know, I'll deliver. I mean I have that.

And so after a

period of a long time she had a an out with her supplier and I'd deliver groceries,

put them exactly where she wanted them,

clean the grapes, do whatever.

Cut I cut meat for the hunters and then I grilled meat for the hunters.

hunters and then I grilled meat for the hunters and over time I end

And over time I ended up winning her and and being able to supply

up winning her and and being able to supply all their groceries.

all their groceries. But it was it wasn't a okay.

But it was it wasn't a okay, I've had people you know,

I've had people you know, sales advertising people come to an office and I said,

sales advertising people come into my office and I said,

Here's the deal, I got money.

You gotta sell me on an idea why I'm spending it with you.

I I don't tell my philosophy. I don't b you know,

the newspaper's probably going by the way of the dodo very long term.

And that's a whole nother animal we can talk about off the show.

But as far as my philosophy on that but I but I but I was being honest.

Radio guys, pick paper guys, you know,

you know, b you know, the ones in Sheridan or it happens all the time now,

hey, you know, especially online and

people sending emails all the time about hey,

we can get you leads or you don't pay,

blah, blah. Whatever, all that stuff.

So you cycle through that information,

but I still believe

it's relational and what I was telling you earlier and I don't think

and I don't think I finished, was the agents in our office that are like,

Okay, I'm just like it's gonna take you a year or two,

maybe three

And let's stick with it. You know,

I'm gonna help you, I'm gonna help you get there,

we're gonna talk through your issues or whatever.

And watching them progress into something where they can you know,

they're making good money or at this particular year this one gentleman

this one gentleman in our office is doing great and he's he's he loves

it and he also is a good Christian man and that's a n a whole nother conversation

is a good Christian man and that's a n a whole nother conversation maybe,

maybe, but so who you surrounding yourself with.

Yeah. It's a big deal.

It's a big, big deal. And being able to cut my partner and that I bought

I bought out from RE/MAX

he said that there's you know,

he had had a really good friend and and something silly happened

and and the relationship dissolved and and he said sometimes there's just some

people that maybe God takes out of your life for a reason.

You gotta be equally yoked as the Bible says.

You gotta be able to you know,

and there's friends and I tell I have four or five friends and I'm blessed

in this respect that

they're gonna tell me what they see.

And they're I know out of the kindness of their heart they're not gonna feel

bad about telling me that I'm going down the wrong road or something.

And I trust that. I and I tell all the time,

you can't offend me outside of killing my dog or sleeping with my wife.

That's really about it. 'Cause I know you're doing it for my best interest 'cause

'cause we have that relationship.

we have that relationship. It's a giant thing to be able to have that.

Yeah. It's a giant thing to have that.

And to have more than one is huge.

And to be able but you also gotta be soft enough to say,

All right, I need to take some advice here.

Yeah.

yeah. There again, back to the humility.

so you built kind of four careers in four totally different industries.

I know. w

which was the most difficult and which was the most rewarding?

Well, f I would say

just the trials of the the grocery business,

that was probably the most difficult time in our life when you go like I say,

you go from zero to a hundred in debt and then

But it was crazy. It was just crazy.

And you know, you're writing these checks.

I never, you know, wrote a check for a million dollars on for a building.

I'm like, are you kidding me? What am I doing here?

Anyway, that was the but you know what?

I'd say they're all people said you miss the grocery business.

I said, I miss the people. I don't miss the challenges people

are having with staffing. And I always walk into a business and and if

I know them well enough, I'll say,

I know well enough I'll say, I'm I'm gonna give you some advice here.

I'm I'm gonna give you some advice here.

This is what happened, you need to know this PV and the people that

People and the people that own Lens right now,

own Lens right now, they they end up buying out

the rest of the grocery store.

for me the building and the property for me and and I've talked to him well enough,

especially the kid, and he's like,

Man, if you see anything, I said,

if you see anything, I said, I don't know if you got time,

I don't know if you got time, you know.

And I and and I'm also careful because I don't want people to think,

well, he thinks ran the best grocery store in the world and will never be that good.

be that good. That's not the case.

That's not the case. I just want to share that.

I just want to sh share that these things are happening potentially more than once

Yeah, these things are happening potentially more than once,

and that you I would want to know.

'Cause you can't fix it. There's some things that you've seen seen it before.

Like,

when I was running my business,

This I always try to, you know,

I always tried to, you know, solicit input from everybody on the team.

solicit input from everybody on the team and hey,

And hey, I might not have the best idea.

I might not have the best idea,

We're not going with my idea. I want to hear all of your guys' ideas.

And every once in a while somebody throws out an idea that I'm like,

that's a great idea. And I know why you think it's a great idea.

I've tried it five times and it doesn't work.

And here's why. You know, like right.

You know, like not that hey,

Not that hey, I'm smarter or

I'm smarter or

I I figure but like I've seen it.

No no no but like here's my experience with that.

Yeah. I've I've I I had the same idea.

This is my experience with that situation.

I had the same idea. I thought it was a great idea when I came up with it as well,

I thought it was a great idea when I came up with it as well,

but it just doesn't work. And you gotta be willing to go boom,

kick that out, tried that, done that.

Yeah.

Let's move on,

find something different. Remember that Chinese restaurant here in town?

I remember

yeah.

one time I went same thing happened at Farmers.

I went in there and and the weeds are everywhere in the front and and I said,

Tommy

If the front of your building looks like this,

I have to ask myself, I wonder what your kitchen looks like.

And then I said, So you under you know,

and he didn't he spoke English,

but it was just I'm like, so I did it.

So I did it. I I was working for Donnie Paulson one summer in that time of

IGA and I I just went over myself and cleaned and weeded.

He gave me like two egg rolls or something.

It was hilarious. And but I said think about that and you don't know

think about that and you don't know how far I said,

I'm just telling you that is is just a courtesy conversation to be able to say,

to be able to say, you know,

you know,

that's what I think about coming in here 'cause if you don't care about that

That's what I think about coming in here,

because if you don't care about that,

and it's all over. only only the only one that is hilarious is is like Greg Bourne

is like Greg Boren and the breadboard.

and Breadboard. Excellent business model,

He does a great job, but he doesn't

doesn't weed his parking lot anything,

I mean, I just think that that's a tale of of what how much you care.

you care and and you look at you know,

And and you look at you know, I tell this guy at Linz right now,

I tell this guy at Lens right now,

even I'm like, dude, you need to get the weeds out of your you I text him,

I text him like you gotta get the weeds out of your deal And

like, You gotta get the weeds out of your deal.

And and

I just think peop you know, I people wanna be led if they're not leading.

They wanna have direction in their life.

In their life. They wanna know that hey got

their back, you're supporting Don't don't don't cheat me,

Me steal or whatever and but they need to have a clear direction.

They need to know where they're going and what the expectations are.

Yeah, you know where they're going.

And what the expectations are.

Everybody wants more money. I get that.

I said, Well, I can't pay everybody that.

This is a grocery business, pretty small margins.

So you've got options. I want you to stay,

but you I don't

Like I say, I managed seven people as well.

I had fifty two employees when I sold it.

And that's a good size team. Yeah.

Yeah.

Super fun though. I mean, that part,

farmers was great. Only because like I say,

I look at it, how would I want to be handled in this situation and both from

the people that were working for me as well as the clients coming in?

I'm like, I get it. You know, I'd go to Walmart when they opened up

in Sheridan and people would be in Walmart that were shopping our store.

and it's like I just want to be your second choice.

I get it. I'm here.

Yeah.

And I own a store, you know? I said,

don't feel bad about it if you're buying stuff.

I get it. You guys you got your own life.

You gonna make your own decisions.

Same with people. I I sent a letter off yesterday to a guy who's got

a house that's for sale by owner.

and Saturday. I sent it off Saturday.

And I and it's been on the market probably.

I can't find it because nobody spends money.

You know what I mean? I've told I've picked up a few of those over

the years because people I'm like,

I can't even find my own house on Zillow.

I said, Well, did you spend any money?

No. Well, what do you think's gonna happen?

You know, what do you think's gonna happen?

If you're spending money with these people,

they're gonna elevate you to a different spot than if you're just looking

for a free ad. I get it. I know why you're trying to do it.

I get it. And I respect that. We all wanna save here and there.

But there's also

data out there that shows you're gonna get what,

data out there that shows you're gonna get what eleven to thirteen percent higher

eleven to thirteen percent higher if you

if you

get the exposure that a an a a real estate agent can give you and then what's that

look like? And so I just sent this letter and just said,

Hey, here's some statistics. You're gonna do whatever it is you need to do.

I know the person not well. if it happens,

great. If it doesn't great. You know,

great, if it doesn't great. You know swinging the bat.

swing in the bat.

So

So w we talked a little bit earlier about education,

and culture changing. Do you think it's still possible for a young person

to build the careers that you have

today? Can can they get in the grocery industry?

Can they get in Two parts to this.

Can they get into insurance? Depends on if they're willing to

Depends on if they're willing to do the delayed gratification thing.

do the delayed gratification thing.

I think it's easier today than it's ever been in the history of the world

to stand out. I I do.

On any business. So you don't know this,

but I bought

I bought a a lawn care snowplow business for a couple of years.

I never never got in a snow plow and I mowed once in a while 'cause

I never never gotten a snow plow and I mowed once in a while 'cause

I enjoy really taking good care of my yard.

But I hired

two girls, rock stars. Her their dad is a rock star and they ran all the mowing.

Two girls, rock stars, her their dad is a rock star,

and they ran all the mowing. They'd come in Monday,

They'd come in Monday, get their check,

get their check. Here's your list for the week.

And I bought it from a family that they the people that had I mean,

it was crazy, Erick. It was crazy.

So I had nine vehicles with snow plows,

four walker mowers, two trailers,

cargo trailer, two flat beds, and the contents of two storage units and a barn.

Sight unseen. And I was working for my accountant for Beehive.

And I heard her in there telling her and he she he's like,

Well she's like, Well, would you do you want to buy the and he's like,

No, no, I don't. and so I said,

Do you mind if I take a run at that?

And well, it's like it's like September.

I'd finished guiding that week or two.

And I'm looking at the forecast in like ten days we might get snow and

I I called this lady, she lived back east and I said,

and I said, I'll give you forty grand for all of it.

But if it's snow the deal's off because these pe all these clients are gonna just

are gonna just

find their own people again. I said And she's mad,

And she's mad. No way it's worth way more than that.

no way it's worth way more than that.

Fine. About four days later, it calls.

Fine, write it up. So I ended up buying this thing for on a line of credit.

Ran it for two years, sold it for so that was the funny.

Paid forty, ran it for two years,

made some pretty decent money,

not a pile.

has some great kids. How how you know you got great kids is I'm like,

Is I'm like, you guys, unless I hear from one of these homeowners,

You guys unless I hear from one of these homeowners and they were very diligent,

and they're very diligent, and one of them got the Marjorie Lang scholarship.

one of them got the Marjorie Lane scholarship.

She was a rock star and it was her sister.

One day I go over to one of the jobs I've been driving by and she's

got this thing propped up on stands and she's sharpening the mower you it's a girl.

You it's a girl, sharpening the blades on this mower,

She's sharpening the blades on this mower and I'm just like I paid handsome.

and I'm just like, I paid him handsome.

I paid him 20 an hour. It's like whatever.

I paid twenty an hour. It's like whatever and I bonus them all the time

And I bonused them all the time.

I but I never had to worry about it.

And then so I ended up selling the lawn care.

So he had

16 clients. When I sold the lawn care,

sixteen clients when I sold the lawn care I had just under forty and

I had just under 40. And he had 58 or 60 snowplows,

he had fifty eight or sixty snow pile and we sold it with eighty one

and we sold it with 81. And I split them off,

and I split off, sold both and made about a hundred grand on

when it was up. But I I I mean,

the sale. But I w I I mean but it but I took care of the staff.

but it but I took care of the staff.

I remember rolling up, seriously I rolled up,

I rolled up it was I was working on my account once.

And this guy comes in, I I got your checks,

I got your checks. He drives up and he rolled I walk outside and he rolls

the window down and it's just spot rolling out.

You can't smoke pot and plow snow and you know,

You know, I'm just like seriously It was so stupid.

But it was great. It was just just you know,

you kinda do what you think or you find a

find a nugget and you're able to do something with it.

Yeah. And I love

Yeah.

Building something. Well you talk pretty openly about your faith and being

Well, you've talked pretty openly about your faith and being a a Christian,

a a Christian, a person of faith.

a person of faith. what does that mean to you and how has that affected your

leadership? Well

Well, everybody

everybody not everybody, but everybody knows that where that works with me.

I try to surround myself. You know,

I have some people that work in my office now that are that's kind of have

you ever heard of Heibel's a book called Walk Across the Room?

Yeah. Yeah. You

You know, his best friend is like seven years non Christian,

he's a boater for an anyway, he took seven years for his friend to come to faith.

And he was a pastor. And it was his best friend,

but it was just just that thing.

So I think, you've heard the slogan,

So I think, you've heard the slogan you'd rather see a sermon than hear one,

you'd rather see a sermon than hear one,

and I agree with that full full wholeheartedly.

I just think people need to examine themselves through the eyes of God and

and be

Be able to ask for forgiveness,

devote time to God, that's probably my hardest thing.

It's intentional as heck, and I'm not a big reader,

so it's like so I've I've had a Bible study for twenty two years.

That's that's the most phenomenal story how that started that you'll ever I mean,

I mean I it is so amazing what God does.

Just amazes me. Okay I'll tell you that story when we're done.

maybe. It's just a cool story

on it. And it's been going for twenty two years.

Yeah. So it you mentioned

you're in a season of life where you've kind of become your own banker,

slowing down a little bit, enjoying your grandkids.

how do you measure success today?

What what what goals do you have for the future?

Wha where are you headed?

Well, a lot of a

lot of the well, I can't retire yet.

I mean, you know, 'cause you you know,

I could. I I I guess I could if I'm I'm I'm actually s researching

I could if I'm I'm I'm actually researching my wife's sixty two now

my wife's sixty two now and I'm like she hasn't worked,

I'm like she hasn't worked, she was did EMS for nineteen years and she's like,

she was did EMS for nineteen years and she's like,

Well, I

I I wanna get a job. I'm like,

Well maybe we ought to explore social security because you're you can get it now.

And I've researched the benefits of waiting 'til you're sixty seven and all that.

and all that and and I'm like,

And and I'm like, I think we oughta check it out,

I think we oughta check it out,

you know, and so she can have some income.

I think I think two things are really,

really great. You remember John and Molly Kyle?

Super friends of mine and they live in Wheatland and and John always told

his kids we used to golf awkward together when his kids were little and

and he's like, You gotta move with purpose.

You gotta get up and move with purpose.

You gotta get up and move with purpose And I think that's a thing that

And I think that's a thing that I feel that's always been in my life.

I feel that that's always been in my life,

Okay, I I can sit around and watch a TV show or a sports game or whatever.

and I'm gotten a lot better at that,

But I used to be gotta go gotta go do something.

I can't just sit here, you know,

I just gotta be busy.

And I think pr different personalities are for that.

But John and Molly are great great people of faith and just just the

the how it's how that's changed in my life as far as

I didn't know what to attribute.

I always thought of doing the right thing,

but I didn't know it was of God.

You know, I didn't know that. And I was at a business conference and so

I just me and my wife stayed late and they said we're having a it's in a stadium.

in a state meeting.

and they're having a church service.

I said, Well, we should go and I'm this guy wasn't a preacher or anything,

he was just a guy, made a pile of money,

tithed seventy percent of his income,

made about seven a year, and told how God and I'm like,

made about seven million a year,

and told how God and I'm like,

That's it.

That is what's missing. Went up,

accepted Christ. like to have a beer now and again,

drink, few drinks here there, whatever.

whatever. I don't I d I think a lot of times,

I don't I d I think a lot of times like everything else in life,

like everything else in life, we I don't think God intended faith to be that hard.

we I don't think God intended faith to be that hard.

I

I just don't think so. I think I live and die by the forgiveness of Christ,

period. That's it. And and I feel forgiven.

And I feel blessed. And so I I'm just like I I

I swear I I say this a lot. I like I wake up in the mornings and it's like

I feel like I've been touched by the hand of God.

It's not that I have not had problems as you know.

It's not that I have not had problems,

as you well know. I how do you live a grateful life?

I how do you live a grateful life?

How do you teach a grateful life?

You know? I wish that I wish that was something you could bestow on people and go,

Man,

there's so much if you look at this lens to be grateful for versus hanging

on to the rest. We went on a mission trip time time to Louisiana,

on to the rest. We went on a mission trip one time,

to Louisiana.

Baton Rich, and they had a flood.

I mean, there was watermarks eight,

seven feet up on the walls. Whole neighborhoods are gone.

Well, we had ten guys piling in a van to go and I'm like,

Well, we had ten guys piling in a van to go,

and I'm like, I am not doing that.

I'm flying there. So I

I'm not doing that. I'm fine So I

flew there on the way that morning before our flight took off,

New Orleans got hit with a tornado.

And so when we get there, it's very well done.

It was so they're like, You you're gonna have people come out.

So we got ended up on a chainsaw crew and there's I I mean I seen things

I've seen things, I'm just like

I'm just like,

are

Are you wow, scary things that you can just know that God and nature

is so powerful that you know, I I saw a t two by six with not

so powerful that you know I I saw a t two by six with not not through both sidewalls

not through both sidewalls of a car.

of a car type.

Wow house gone, one next to it at shingles.

A house gone, one next to it had shingles

missing. And they had military on all these streets.

And so the guy when you're at this mission place,

he's like, You're gonna have everybody in their brother's gonna walk

out of their house and say, We need help.

You can't do it because we have crews coming in.

He said, This is gonna be the hardest part of your life because

if we're sending people to do something that you've already done,

we're not utilizing ourselves that well.

And so there were certain things that we could help with.

A lady, an old lady

I mean, she was preaching Jesus after she was in her eighties

and laid under sheetrock, her roof fell down,

hit a table. She is in this little spot for like six hours.

And they finally peel this girl out.

There's food trucks all over and they're just feeding people and water people

people are given water 'cause the place was devastated.

And she we were praying with this girl,

this old lady, and she was just like,

my god, it was just a a moment of like,

I hope I can have that kind of faith someday.

Yeah, that's something to aspire to and and try to live up to.

something to aspire to. Yeah, exactly.

But we had gangbangers.

coming up and they're buying us food,

cutting trees off cars and houses and and it was just a one of those moments you're

just like, my goodness. I do not know persecution in my life.

I do not know persecution in my life.

Yeah. We have it pretty comfortable in America today.

And I think that's something people need to actually be conscious of.

Yeah. You know what? What do you see in your life?

Is it a big problem? Well is it you?

What are you what are you gonna what are you gonna pay attention to?

You know what I mean? I just choose to see the good things in life.

That's a great attitude. So I if someone wants to engage with you,

That's a great attitude. So i if someone wants to engage with you,

especially for real estate services,

what's gonna be the best way to get in touch with you?

Well, my cell number, I mean I have a web page,

I I don't even look at it. it needs to be

it needs

to be you know, my my existence the best way is just just get a hold of me.

We're on one thirty seven North Maine,

but

I we pass deals off and we one of the things I don't like about the industry,

One of the things I don't like about the industry,

I've been in other offices and seen that and dealt with realtors that are like,

I've been in other offices and seen that,

and dealt with realtors that are like,

Call their office, they're on vacation,

maybe. Can I get a code? Get it we don't know it.

We don't know it. And I'm like so it's kinda like or a client comes in

And I'm like so it's kinda like or a client comes in and it's like the hunger games.

and it's like the hunger games.

They're all f you know, I talked to them you know,

two years ago. I th they should be my client.

We don't work that way.

It's just you're gonna get all of us.

Like I've showed property for a couple of guys on vacation.

Adam t he runs Blacktooth excursions and he's on the mountain all summer.

I help him get his stuff done just because then we work out some arrangement

or split the deal or whatever.

Just help them. But that's I I want to be a place people want to work.

I we we're looking for some folks in Sheridan right now.

I've met with one and then I talked to one over the weekend and it's just like

the same thing. This is what we offer.

This is how I run.

You know, I'm the broker for all of these eight offices and this is how

we run our business and if it's something that would be beneficial or

Or you see some benefit for you,

you see some benefit for you, you can cater your own commission schedule

you can cater your own commission schedule and there's fees and things,

and there's fees and things. You just gotta sort out what's best for you,

you just gotta sort out what's best for you,

but we leave it wide open. So if you don't make a lot of money now

and you're trying to get in it,

then you might want to take a plan.

then you might wanna take a plan and it's totally customizable or caterable.

And it's totally customizable or caterable.

And so it's like but I wanted you to come in and we're just gonna have

fun and talk through the challenges of a real estate deal and

no different different

IGA or farmers or anything else,

lawn care. I always told these girls,

I said, You get done with that yard,

you walk around that yard, maybe

pull an extra weed when you're not really there to pull weeds.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Just make it better than we're take care of people.

Yeah. Such a great great way, I think.

At least it's been beneficial.

I told you earlier that I text or talk to my mom twice a day.

My siblings are there. She's got severe osteoporosis,

but I just feel we built a little guest house by the grace of God and and

but

But my mom required

way more care than we w we would be able to provide.

You know what I mean? And yeah she would live there.

But my mother in law, my father in law,

a great man, just passed away less than a month ago and they live in Las Vegas.

So we have a little place, we don't rent it and she can come stay and

t hub out about that until she figures out what she's gonna do.

But she'll move back because her grandkids are here and her two daughters

are here. And so we have a place,

So we have a place, you know, just just you know,

you know, just just you know,

I've had people stay there that are just passing through.

you know, passing through.

Bill Joy just like he spent like two months there with his camper parked between

which is my houses. He's tighter than Dick's hat band and so he's but he you know,

he he said, Here's some money for utilities,

you know. I mean, just just be there.

But it but life is if I if you said,

But it but life is if I if you said what's the big takeaway mark from you,

What's the big takeaway, Mark,

from you? I said life is very relational.

And if you're not afraid to embrace the relationships in your life

and and throw your heart out there a little bit.

fully knowing that you could get it trounced once in a while.

But if like yourself, you know,

you're somebody go hang out with,

you know, I can just tell you're a man of faith.

You want to do the right thing too and and you're going to try to try

you wanna do the right thing too,

and and you're gonna try try to help people get where they need to go.

to help people get where they need to go.

Well that's a pretty solid life,

you know? It's a pretty solid because it's not about you.

Yeah. And it really isn't about us.

But when you make it about you,

that's when you and if you don't really self introspectively look at that and go,

maybe like I told you earlier,

maybe it's maybe I'm part of the problem here.

Maybe my thinking ain't right.

of the problem here. Maybe my thinking ain't right.

It takes intentionality 'cause y y you don't it's too easy to

It takes intentionality. It takes intentionality to focus on others and

and live a life of gratitude. And and and the other thing is I don't expect

in in and in in real estate or insurance,

you know, you do something nice or whatever.

I suppose you want to get a quote or I'm supp you know that's up to you.

That's up to you. You drive your own ship.

You drive your own ship. You you're gonna make your own business decisions.

You you're gonna make your own business decisions.

If I can you can pro provide value in what I'm doing,

great.

If you s list with somebody else and I've seen that before,

man, I'm sorry, you know, a friend of the family.

I'm good with that. It's okay.

I'm not gonna get all. And it's okay,

but we're still gonna be friends.

Yeah. You know, and at least if I can express to people that I'm gonna do

the best I can and work for you as best I can,

fully knowing that I'm gonna probably screw up here and there.

As long as we have that understanding,

but no, I'm gonna do the best I can to make it right if I do,

or I'm gonna do the best I can to get you where you need to go.

And that's it.

But a lot of my and and as I mentioned earlier but I didn't finish that either,

which is you go through the life of IGA.

So we had nineteen years or whatever,

eighteen years in the grocery business and then five or six years

in insurance business.

real estate was probably a lot easier for me because it kinda paved my

way along the time I've been in Buffalo.

You know what I mean? And and and there's some people that'll never use me.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And and and there's some people that'll never use me.

I have a deal going right now where same thing estate and people are

all the families have their own attorneys,

whatever. And one of 'em's like,

like if we don't list with this one I'm never gonna sell or I'm not selling.

if we don't list with this one,

I'm never gonna sell or I'm not selling.

Okay. Well, I put put in my proposals and I've done my s everything I can

do and put my best foot forward,

put my best foot forward. But one of 'em's just not gonna

but one of 'em's just not gonna

go with anybody else. So it's been I mean this is a year and change going

go with anybody else. So it's been,

I mean, this is a year and change going on trying to just massage this through time.

on trying to just be cautious for time.

And but I don't, you know, whether you want to do business with me

You know, whether you want to do business with me or you think you know what?

or you thinking you know what?

That's your choice. You make your own business decisions and what's best

for your family. I always express this though.

I did a couple of Facebook social media posts.

I'm like, you should shop your agent just like you do insurance or anything else.

You should shop it and say this is what we do.

Well this is what we do.

Get some bids. It's real estate.

Seriously. Yeah. Because you know,

the world of r the reason it's one of the least attractive

businesses is because most people are dying to get the listing made maybe

maybe, and then they bang a sign in.

and then they bang a sign in. Well what do you do after that?

Well, what do you do after that?

Yeah. How are you gonna sell your house?

What's your social media's presence?

How are you getting the word out?

Are you spending any money on my house?

You know, people, you know, are you are you giving it the exposure that it deserves?

Yeah, we're gonna do our best by that.

Here's our here's the stuff we do.

Do I told you earlier we do quite a bit of commercial stuff and and

a house person who sells a lot of residential may or may not have those tools.

not have those tools. We have Crexy,

So we have Craxy, BizBy Sale, LoopNet.

BizBy Sale, Loopnet. We buy into those so that when we list commercial properties,

We buy into those so that when we list commercial properties,

RE/MAX has a big commercial presence in the world too.

But so do these other places. We're trying to and we spend money on it

so that we get exposure for you.

Our job's to sell your house. You hired us to sell your house.

That's or your property or your business.

And I love I love this business sales too,

just because you can analyze business and and look at you know what they

what they can get and and that's fun.

can get and and that's fun. That's a lot of fun for me.

That's a lot of fun for

me 'cause I've kind of done it,

you know. Yeah. Sold my own. Multiple times.

Yeah multiple times. Yeah.

Yeah, I sold

my own stuff. And so I kinda have a I think I don't think I have a

leg up on anybody, but I think I have some experiences that help

me understand what needs to happen to sell a business.

What needs to to sell business.

yeah. You have a a wealth of n knowledge,

wisdom, experience. And

I know you've got an appointment you need to get to,

but I really appreciate you taking time to join us today.

Wow, did that go fast? It does.

And fast. It does. It goes really fast,

It goes really fast. Especially when there's such great things to talk about

especially when there's such great things to talk about and so much wisdom

and so much wisdom to be gained.

to be gained. So thank you.

So Well my whole my

well thank you. I appreciate it.

I I just think people really again,

take your eyes off yourself, look at helping trying to help somebody else

be better or help somebody w get where they need to go and life's just

And life's just not about you.

not about you. That's my whole thing.

Amen. Good stuff and that's a good place to end.

So Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Thank you for joining us here on From the Ground Up Show.

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