Ken Dickson – Building What Lasts: Leadership Lessons from Construction

You don't want to own the project that a contractor went

bankrupt on. No and.

The next morning you wake up and go, Oh my gosh, now we have to

do the work. Right, the hard, the hard work

begins. Yeah, that's why I tell me sales

guys selling, it's easy doing it's not so easy.

And doing it and making money out, it's even harder.

And that's creates an opportunity for for somebody

that's, you know, has some energy and is smart and wants,

wants to get into this industry. Once I get the right people in

the job, then my, my problems really go away because they they

take care of business. One of the things that that Bill

taught me was everybody has problems.

It's how you deal with your problems that makes you the

person you are. Hey there and welcome to From

the Ground Up Show, the show where we encourage and inspire

the next generation of free thinking leaders by telling the

stories of those that have been there, done that, and are still

getting it done. Building a life that they love

with their hearts, their hands and their hustle.

I'm your host Eric Loden. If you guys are enjoying the

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and helps get the content out there.

And this morning I am super excited to be joined by Ken

Dixon. Ken is the owner of AMW

Architectural Metalworks based in Oregon.

Ken has spent the last 30 years building AMW into a regional

powerhouse, installing architectural metal exteriors

and commercial roofing. So, Ken, thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me, Eric. Well, we start out every show,

we like to just learn a little bit about you and your

background. So can you tell us a little bit

about your life growing up as a kid?

So I grew up in a suburb of Portland, OR called Fallaton.

It was a A at the time of a really small town and we lived

on a small some some acreage and raised some cattle, livestock

was involved in 4H. It was a it was a good

lifestyle. It was in the country.

We had some had some friends around that we were able to hang

out with. My grandfather lived a few miles

away. They had a farm.

They were farmers. So I, I worked for him as a

child working on his farm, rode dirt bike, golfed a lot of

sports and just had a had a had a good childhood.

So and I imagine we lived in the same house the my whole life.

I imagine Tualatin has changed quite a bit in the last few

decades. Yeah, there was 1400 people in

Twelveton when I was a kid and now there's about oh, 28,000 and

it's so it's changed quite a bit.

And our shop we're we're in quality and our shop is so.

So how far do you live now from where you grew up?

Oh boy, maybe 8 miles away. I live in Sherwood, a

neighboring town kind of out in the country between Twelveton

and Sherwood and Wilsonville, just kind of a little quadrant

on the South side of Portland. Yeah, it's beautiful there.

I just spent a little bit of time there last weekend and the

weather was beautiful. Everything was green, even here

in the middle of winter, so. We've been having a really mild

winter, a lot of rain, but it's hasn't gotten very cold this

year. I think that's true here for a

lot of the Northwest. I know that's true for us

anyway. We had a a weird weather pattern

that they say pushed winter back about a month, so.

See if it comes at all. Not much snow on the mountain,

no. So can you tell us a little bit

about your education? Did you pursue any education

after high school? Yeah, I from high school, I went

to, I went to Community College for two years and got an

associate degree in business and then I transferred to Portland

State University and I finished up my bachelor's there in also

in business. It was a, it was a small

business degree. They don't I don't think they

offer it anymore. It was a lot of different types

of classes. So you had a can't, you had

accounting, operations stuff management, marketing, law, just

just different disciplines that you might need if you were going

to run your own business. That sounds like a great degree,

a small business focus rather than just a generic business

degree. Did you find that education very

applicable when you actually started running your own

business, or was everything different?

No, I'm, I'm it, it all applied. I wish, you know, I'm, I'm not

going to say I learned everything in college that I

needed in business because I didn't.

I, I learned a lot of expensive lessons along the way, but I

there was like the law portion and the accounting portion, and

those would be the two that were most applicable.

Yeah, I can relate to that. My one of my degrees is in

business management and for the most part it seemed like most of

the classes in the business degree kind of thought what I

thought was just common sense. I'd sit in class and they'd

teach a topic and be like, oh, somebody made-up a name for

that. I I thought that would just like

doing the right thing or doing the thing that made sense.

But accounting and HR were probably the two that were have

been most applicable for me. Yeah.

So I worked, I worked my way through college as a so I had a

friend that had his older brother owned a roofing company.

And so, so I worked there in the summer roofing, single ply

roofing that would end back in like I think I started in 82 and

we, we would put down this trocal and good Goodyear rubber.

So those were those were the old days that we'd Weld the seams

with chemical welding or glue. Pretty things have changed a

lot. Oh man, yeah, those early days

of PVC with the chemical welding.

And yet you spread your chemicals and then drag a

sandbag over the seam to get it to Yep.

Yep. That things have changed a lot

since then, especially in that PVC world, yes, the EPDM maybe

not so much, but. Yeah, yeah.

So that's how I that's where I got my start in roofing.

OK so you you grew up on a farm, kind of a rural upbringing or

country living. Anyway, went to college and

worked your way through college as a roofer.

Did you have any other jobs between college and starting

AMW? Well, I worked as a worked for a

food broker for a while selling food to grocery stores.

But that's, that's and I sold shoes at, at JC Penney's.

So those are and then I worked for my grandfather.

So those, those were my oh, I'd had a paper route started when I

was 12. That's quite the diversity I bet

you learned a lot of you got to learn sales and hard work and

roofing gave you a pretty diverse education outside of

school. Yeah.

No, it was, it was good. I did learn some sales

techniques. Good.

So how long did you do those other odd jobs between

graduating and starting AMW? Well, let's.

See, I, I worked for the roofing company during college and then

in the falls when, when it was time to go back to school, I

started estimating for the, for that company and I, and I

estimated, I learned how to estimate with them.

And I, so while I was going to school, I would estimate.

And then when I graduated from college, I went, I couldn't, I

didn't really find anything that I liked better than what I was

already doing, which was estimating.

And so I went to work back full time with them as an estimated

project manager and I worked for a couple more years for him and

then I went to work for a gentleman called Bill Mackey,

William Mackey on Mackey Roofing up here out of Portland, OR.

They were mostly a built up roofing company commercial.

We, we would go around really only had a couple clients.

We had a client, Fred Meyers and then a client Payless, and we

would start out the year in say January and we'd go and we would

review and, and analyze their roofs in around the northwest

and make our recommendations. And then in, you know, in March,

they would pick, you know, however many stores they were

going to re roof. And then we would spend the rest

of the year re roofing just those projects.

And that was kind of the cycle that we that we ran there.

And I, I started a single play division there with him when I

was 28, No 26, little earlier maybe because I started my

company when I was 28, so maybe 26.

I learned a lot from him. He was a, he was a good teacher.

He was a third generation roofer out of California.

So he had a lot of, a lot of history in the roofing business.

So I, I met a lot of, of the old characters, so to speak, from

him throughout, throughout the Northwest, you know, going down

to the shows and stuff. So it was, it was good

experience. And then I, I went back to work

for the gentleman that taught me how to, to estimate and rough

worked for him for another year or so and started.

And what, what I was doing there was I was estimating single ply

roofing and sheet metal. And we, we were subcontracting

out all of our sheet metal. We didn't have a, a shop and we

were using a gentleman out of town called Albany, OR which

was, is about, I don't know, an hour South of Portland.

And he wanted to retire and I wanted to, I wanted a company.

I, I wanted to do it on my own. So I bought him out.

He was, there was a company called Cambridge Metal Works.

And so really all I did is me and me and my friend, we bought

his equipment and then we moved it up onto a, some property that

my parents owned in Wilsonville OR small shop and that's where

we started. So, so that's kind of how that

all started. And then I worked, I sold,

estimated and sold sheet metal with where I was working full

time. And then I and then we would sub

it to myself as a subcontractor and then I worked, we would work

nights fabricating metal. Well, that's quite the grind to

be working a full time job while you're running your own

business. It was, it was a lot, but it, it

didn't seem, it didn't seem bad, you know, because you're working

for yourself. And so at, at some point you had

to make the take the plunge and you can only do that for so

long. Or I could and I had some

client. I, I had picked up other clients

besides where I was working. One of them was Mackie Roofing,

Bill Mackie, and the other one was Interstate Roofing.

They were roofing company up here in Portland, Mike Satrin

and those two guys convinced me that I needed to just go to work

full time. So me and my partner who I

started the company with, that's what that's what we did.

So that would have been 19/19/91.

OK. And when did you first kind of

developed the dream to become self-employed?

You said when that company went up for sale that you really

wanted to own your own company. When did that dream start?

Probably back when I was about, I mean, when I was young, a

child, I would read books about business leaders and, and, and

people that, that ran companies and, and that's what I wanted to

do. And so I always, I always wanted

to do that. And you know, like my

grandfather, he was self-employed and other people I

knew that were self-employed. So I didn't, I guess I didn't

have a fear of that. I was willing to take that risk

because I saw success that way. And so I always knew that that's

what I wanted to do. Not exactly.

You know, I didn't have it was fuzzy.

It was fuzzy, but it was something on this line.

Yeah. Did you think it would be in the

in the trades and roofing and sheet metal or you just wanted

to to be a business leader? No, I, I, I really didn't think

it. I had no idea.

I didn't even know what roofing was really.

It was like when I started in roofing and sheet metal.

I, I had no idea what it was. But I, I liked it.

I liked the industry. I liked, I liked a lot.

I like sheet metal because I'm, I like to design visual things.

And, and that's what kind of put me when I got going kind of away

from the roofing portion of it and more into the sheet metal

portion because people could see what I what I did in the sheet

metal and then the roofing. I just didn't get that same

feeling. Yeah.

Yeah, when you're installing especially commercial roofs on,

you know, flat roofed buildings, you put in a lot of work, a lot

of time, a lot of energy, and nobody ever sees it.

There's not a lot of, if you build a a facade or put up a new

sign or do something else with exteriors, you can people drive

by and see what you did and you can really be proud of that work

and how it looks and you can still be proud of your work

roofing, but nobody ever sees it or appreciates it.

Nobody notices that they're not getting dripped on when they're

inside a building. Right, the best roof is the one

you don't think about at all. Yep, Yep.

Yeah. So you said it took a little bit

of convincing to leave your full time job and and go full time

doing your own thing. What did those early years look

like? Did you stay pretty busy right

away or was that a struggle? No, I was we were busy right off

the the get go. We had I had good, good clients

and they kept me busy. They, they were, I, I guess the

lesson that they taught me was, you know, is to just treat them,

treat your clients the way you want to be treated.

So I try to, I always try to do the right thing, you know, and

one of the things that, that Bill taught me was everybody has

problems. It's how you deal with your

problems that makes you the company that you are or the

person you are. And so I, I've always remembered

that. And if we've, you know, I've

had, we've had problems too, just like everybody.

But we, we always take care of our issues.

That's, that's just #1. So I've found that sometimes the

the customers whose projects we have problems on often end up

being our best customers as far as reviews or referrals.

Even though we had some issues, when they saw how we handled it

and took care of them, that that almost won more points than if

we did the project without any issues at all.

Have you found that to be true? Oh yeah, yeah.

People appreciate when you take care of them and it might not be

your fault, but you just you take care of them anyway so.

Yeah, Yeah. That's great.

You mentioned that you started that business with a partner.

Is he still involved? No, he, he, he was, he got out

after the first year, but he's still in the roofing business

for a competitor. He's a, he's a runs a, a

commercial roofing division for a local, for a local company.

Of course, he's getting ready to retire too, like the rest of us

my age. But he was he, he was a good, he

was a he's a good roofer, has a lot of integrity.

So you guys started out just the two of you estimating and

manufacturing all your own metal 1991 you said?

1991, yeah, yeah. What did it look like to build

that company? How long did you guys do it,

just you and when did you start bringing more people on or

taking on larger projects? Well, the first year was just

the two of us and then year, year 2, year three, we brought

on a couple of helpers workers or I did.

He was gone by then. And so I had I would estimate

and then, you know, I did it all really except for the book work.

My mom actually was a a bookkeeper for a company out

here in Tualatin. And so she ran our books for for

me on the side just just just because.

And so I would estimate and then I would help fab and then help

also help install. So we were for probably the

first three years, four years until I got just so busy selling

and I'm estimating I didn't have time to install anymore.

So then we just, I had the install crews doing that.

Yeah. Has has doing the install always

kind of been a part of your business model?

I know it in our area anyway, a lot of the sheet metal shops do

primarily just the fabrication and then the the contractors

that they sell to do a lot of the installation.

Have you guys always done both? We've always done both, but we

we have, you know, our excess capacity.

We do fabricate for other people.

We, we didn't used to, I always just fabricated for myself and

then installed. But now, now we fabricate for

other roofing and sheet metal and window companies, masonry

guys with our because we have excess capacity on our

fabrication side. Yeah, the all the new technology

in that space has made it so you can fabricate stuff a lot faster

than we used to. Oh yeah.

Yeah. For sure.

I'm sure you guys probably have way better stuff than I did, but

when we went from a a manual break to some of the new CNC

stuff, holy cow you could do twice as much stuff with half as

many people. Yeah, one.

Yeah, I don't. I can't even operate the

equipment anymore. You have the old leaf breaks and

slitters and all that stuff. There's no way we could get out

the metal these days with that. Well, we run Leaf computer, Leaf

breaks mostly. I think we were in four of them

and then some CNCS. It's, it's just kind of a

different game. Yeah.

And. That's a.

That's quite a production line if you're keeping 4 breaks busy.

Not always it comes and it goes, but we're, we, we have right now

we're kind of slow, but OK, we're, we're set up to do we,

you know, we, we buy everything in coil now and then we, we have

cut to length lines. So we, we cut out, cut all our

own metal. We stock every, everything and

then, and then bend it up so it's more efficient that way.

And we, we save money on where we've, we kind of, we like moved

up a tier on our suppliers. So we buy from the mill so we

can increase our margins a little more.

Yeah, yeah. That's great.

What has been the most difficult step in building your company?

Well, I would have to say, well, there's a couple things that I

last one is hiring the right people.

That was that's been a tough one to learn that lesson.

And then financing has always been a struggle.

Cash flow in especially in the in the early days, even when we

were smaller, it was seemed to be more of an issue.

And so part and that lesson about what markets we were in

and how that affected the cash flow was also kind of a hard

lesson to learn because you want to sell, you want to make sales

and create revenue. But if you know if all of our

clients are paying us on the net 20 and we don't have the the

financing to carry the the note like that, then when you can run

into some some problems which which I have done before so.

Are there particular markets that you had to pull out of or

back off of because of that? Well, new construction out here

pays not quite as as good as as say the reroofed business to

business model. And we used to do, we used to do

a lot or a lot of new construction and a lot of

government work which pays. But also, you know, kind of pays

slower and then has a high retention or it used to have a

high retention rate for a long time.

So yeah, I know you know that probably, you know, waiting for

your 10% or whatever for a year, that's your profit.

So that's, that's, that's a tough game.

It is. It gets real old when they're

hanging on to the last 10% and especially working exteriors as

we do. Yeah, it might be a year before

the retainage is released at the end of the project, cuz we get

our work done before anybody else starts for the most part

so. That's that's right.

So that's that's, that was, that's a challenge.

What has been your strategy for growing your company?

Do you have a a particular strategy you've applied or a

methodology? Well, we're more nowadays we're,

we're a little more sophisticated in what we do, but

it was always before it was building and they will come.

So I or sell it and we will get it done.

So I would just go out and just sell, sell, sell, sell, sell.

And then and then we would just get the work done.

So we, we do a little more planning now.

We're not, we're not running that game anymore.

But for a lot of years, that's what that's what we did.

Yeah, I think that's been a way we've grown successfully over

the years too, is you get excited about something big or

new and it kind of a change of mind from day-to-day.

The day you land the job or or win the bid, man, you're riding

on clouds. That's a a big point to

celebrate. And the next morning you wake up

and go, Oh my gosh, now we have to do the work.

Right, the hard, the hard work begins.

Yeah, selling, sales guys selling it's easy.

Doing it's not so easy. And doing it and making money

out, it's even harder. Very true.

There's a reason most contractors are in and out of

business within a couple years. It's quite a feat to have lasted

over 30 years like you have a. Determination maybe?

So you mentioned staffing and finding the right people was a

difficulty and a pain point. What have you figured out is

your secret to finding the right people for your culture and your

company? Well, so as we've grown, it's I

find now that it's, it's easier to attract talent when when I

when we were small and we were really just kind of grinding it

out as the newcomer, it was, it was hard to attract real a list

talent. And it's also possibly could

because I was younger. So I was looking at younger

people instead of maybe hiring seasoned people that could have

helped a little more and that could have been my own

insecurities. But now, now we're able to.

I find that I always would. I will rather pay a little more

money or whatever it takes to get the right people in the job.

And once I get the right people in the job, then my, my problems

really go away because they, they take care of business and,

and I don't have to deal with in inconsistencies of maybe

somebody that's less experienced.

So that, that's, that's probably the biggest change.

Yeah. How have you seen the labor

market shift over the last 30-4 years?

Have there been times where it was easier to find those people

in times that it was harder? Or is it kind of been a steady

grind the whole time? Are we?

So boots on the ground people you mean?

I guess anywhere. Well, in the office, you know,

I, I find that that's, it's pretty easy to find talented

people now in, in accounting and office back backroom work kind

of. But it's gotten more and more

and more difficult to find operations people, operations

people and actual people actually doing the work.

Because I can remember back in say around, you know, early

2000s, maybe late 1990s, we were able to run apprenticeship

programs and, and we would have as many applicants as we wanted

of, of guys that wanted to go to school and work and learn a

trade. And now we, that's pretty much

dried up. We, we just don't get the

response that we used to. So we've, you know, we've, we've

gone to more immigrant labor than we used to.

So there's that which causes its own kind of issues, challenges,

but but that's, that's the labor that's out there to do the work

now. And, and we've also start using,

we're using a lot of subcontractors, which is another

model that that we never, you know, we never used for a long

time. It was all in house labor, but

we can't get everything done anymore without subcontracting.

Yeah. Was that a difficult change to

make? You.

You sound like it seemed like. A little bit of on the flat side

in house, yeah, on the commercial side of the business,

on the commercial roofing side, I think it's they've, they've

that that industry's adapted that model more readily than on

the sheet metal side. It's, it's kind of a, although

they're related, the skill sets a little different.

Sheet metal fabricator or installer is a different mindset

than a production flat roofer. And it's that the sheet metal

segment, it hasn't at least out here in the Northwest, the

subcontractor model hasn't, hasn't really flourished.

No, people don't really use it. And so it's there's, there's

really not much, there's not, not very many subcontractors out

there that are doing sheet metal that are willing to work on a

labor model, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Everybody kind of does their own

thing instead of sales and production separation there.

Yeah. So it's, so there's a lot of

smaller, it's more segmented market sheet on the sheet metal

side. There's a lot of smaller shops

even in Portland. There's probably, I don't know,

probably 12 or so that that run around doing work and self

performing. So it's it's it's harder to

scale, a lot harder to scale. Gotcha.

It's a lot more a lot more detailed work, I guess fine

skills or refined skills involved in the sheet metal too.

That makes it a little more difficult to to scale and define

labor like you're talking about. Yeah.

So about, I don't know, probably 10-15 years ago, you know, a lot

of roofers, commercial roofers decided that they were going to

be sheet metal, commercial sheet metal roofers and do sheet

metal. And so they came into the

market. A lot of the residential roofers

were thrown comp up. They decided they'd do metal.

So the margins on the work kind of took a, took a dive and a

sheet metal shop. Usually the, the wages that we

that we have to pay are a little higher.

So our costs are higher. So we had to go at that point,

we went to more complicated work, stuff that they couldn't

do, they didn't have the skill set.

So there's so we're always having to do a little more

difficult, complex work to make the margins that we have to make

to cover our costs. And that's, that makes things

more difficult to do. And then maybe in about 10 years

ago, the Hardy Cider guys decided that they were going to

be clatters and they were going to do ACMS and, and all of the

systems that we were doing on the sidewall work.

And so that took a, took a hit out of what we do.

And so, you know, we've adapted by now.

We do, you know, we'll, we do Hardy, we do any kind of siding

on the sidewall. We've, you know, we pick up, we

do windows now. We, we, we, we basically started

just wrapping the whole exteriors so that we could get

a, a more market share on less projects and our clients like to

deal with one company. And so, and so that was kind of

one of the reasons why five years ago when Grant came and,

and pitched, you know, his, his idea to me, I thought that was

kind of where we wanted to go. That was the, the, that was the

last, really one of the last scopes that we weren't covering

anymore, which was the, which was the roofs.

So even though, you know, we, we've had single ply roofing

divisions before, I had one back in the late 90s, we hadn't done

it for a long time. And so getting back to that

skill set or that scope was a was a move that I thought we

needed to make. Yeah, I, I feel like that's a a

trend and then a correction I've seen especially in exteriors is

it used to be a contractor was a contractor and they did

everything and seemed like they're in the the 90s and early

2000s. Everybody got really, really

specialized and you had the window guy and the door guy and

the siding guy and the trim guy. And in the last decade or so, it

seems to be trending back the other direction where people are

doing more of we'll take care of all of it and not quite as

specialized. All right.

And, and that's what we've done so and it's been it's been

successful. It's the other thing on the

single ply commercial roofing, it's a lot for us it seems it's

a lot faster to scale because we're not making it.

We're just, it's like going to the store and buying everything

and then all we have to really do is install it.

So it's a lot easier to scale, which is why we've grown so

fast. If we were trying to grow the

sheet metal that fast, I I don't think it wouldn't have it.

Just what doesn't fly? It's too complex.

Yeah, I can see that. I know we kind of had a an in

house sheet metal shop. We didn't do all the exteriors.

We just stayed kind of our own roofing flashings and stuff and

and then the membrane roofing. And I actually really prefer the

sheet metal work. That's a lot more interesting to

me. But the roofing was more

profitable for us. It was easier to find labor.

It didn't take quite the level of skilled labor.

And so that was kind of the direction we veered just for

those reasons. But it sounds like you guys have

stuck it out and fought for it and become successful in both

arenas. Yeah, I think, I think so.

I mean we were, I don't, we will never be the sheet metal side

will never be as big or have the revenue driving as the flat.

It's just it's not going to happens to be too much.

But we are successful at it and we've been doing it.

We've been doing it a long time and we have a good client base

for sheet metal. People know us and so it's it's

something that we can that we've always been able to do

successfully. Good.

So I know you got your start in single ply.

Sounds like you had a a single ply division a couple different

times throughout your history running a company and then you

mentioned you kind of brought Grant into spearhead that

Division Four or five years ago. What was that transition like or

or how did that feel? Maybe to turn in somebody else

loose with a division that used to be your thing.

It's been it's had its challenges trying to because

what what we what we did was we brought, you know, we brought

Grant in and then brought Grant brought all his own people in

And so and they were they Grant already had a a system and and

he knew how he was going to run it in the operation.

So he, he was, he went from zero to 100 really fast.

So like within two years we went from zero to, I don't know, I

think 8 million in flat and without really any effort.

And that, that caused, that caused some issues on the, for

the, the rank and file that had been here for, you know, 20

years. That a lot of jealousy, there's

mistrust. There's a lot of, lot of issues

that we, that we've gone through, growth issues that

we've been, we've been working on for like 5 years to try to

really become a cohesive unit. And it's just been in the last

really the last year I see things are really the synergy

because there's, there's a, there's a real synergy there

that can be had between the sales guys when they're like the

flat guys when they're selling, they can sell sidewall.

The, the, the, the sidewall guys can sell roofing.

So we're, we're that's kind of spinning up now and it's

becoming better. But there was a lot of jealousy

and a lot of, and I, I kind of just let it go.

I let the division just kind of run and grow and do.

And so they, they had maybe deserving perks that they got

that caused rifts amongst other parts of the company that I was

not really paying enough attention to.

And so as a leader, you know, 2020 hindsight, I, I would do

things a little differently, but it's as far as profit and

revenue goes, it's been, it's been wildly successful.

Great. So it sounds like you almost had

kind of two separate businesses running under the same roof for

a while and now you're starting to to pull them together so

they're working together as a team.

Right. I mean that that's always been

the challenge is they, they've kind of ran with autonomy.

And really for my vision of, of a real robust company AMW in the

future is we, we are all one and we all, you know, all work

together for our own best common good, which is the BMW with and

it doesn't matter which side you're on.

So that's, that's what we've been working on.

It's, it's, it's a challenge. We're still working on it, but

it's it's what I think really needs to be That's the key to

the future. Yeah.

So what what steps are you taking to bring those two

cultures or almost those two separate companies together?

Do you have any tips or tricks to to build that unified

culture? Well, we've, so we were in two

separate, we were, we were as autonomous as we were running

out of two separate offices. And so we were we, we, we all

moved in together. That was the first thing we did.

We've all, we've all move in together.

All the sales guys are together now all the, the flat commercial

guys are working with the sheet metal guys all in the same

space. That made that made a

difference. They all got to know each other

and on a personal level. So they have, they have more

trust and then you know, we, we, we started having more, more

leadership meetings. So we have weekly meetings with

the, the, the OPS crews on both sides and the sale.

And then we have sales meetings with all the salesman and the

estimators together. So we all started working

together and then leadership meetings with, with the

different divisions. So Grant runs the the flat

roofing division and then Eric runs the metal division and

Larry also runs the metal division.

They all meet every week and get together and, and work together.

So we're able to more work on more common, common goals.

So it's it's helping. Yeah, it sounds like you took

quite a chance on on Grant and like you said, kind of turn them

loose to almost run autonomously.

It seems like that has paid off for you.

But I imagine that was that's a pretty big swing to go for it on

that level. Was that a little bit scary to

have somebody turned loose doing their own thing under your

umbrella? I would no, not, I guess not I'm

I was, I've always been kind of a risk taker with business.

I don't gamble. I feel I feel I gamble everyday

just coming into work. But I was I was right in the

middle of when when I when I made that decision, I was right

in the middle of I was either going to buy a company out of

Seattle, WA. It was another sheet metal

company that a couple guys might that wanted to retire that have

been in round for a long time that I knew.

And so I was I was getting ready to pull the trigger on that one.

And then Grant came in with his deal and I don't know, I'm

familiar with roofie and I just thought it was the way to go.

I liked Grant. He he's he's a sharp guy and I

just let him go and it and it and it worked.

Maybe not not 100%, but it never does.

Everything takes longer than you think.

Everything's harder than you think.

I've that's been my experience. I've started a couple companies

that I've spun off from AMW and every time when I do it, it's I.

It takes way more effort and way more time, way more money than I

then I think it's going to. That's the three rules of

business, right? It takes twice as long as you

think, it costs twice as much as you think, and you are not the

exception. That's the truth, yeah.

At what point in your leadership journey were you most afraid,

and what was the what was the source of that fear?

Well, leadership journey, I would say probably the last,

probably just the last five years have been the most

challenging because we've grown so fast and my role has changed

a lot. We, we went from like a mom and

pop organization for years and years to a, a, a big

organization where we have to give, give the players the power

to make the decisions that they, that are, that they think are

right and then be OK with that. And I've always been kind of a

meddler and I found that that doesn't, that's not successful.

So that's been a challenge that and frankly, my age and where

I'm at in my life, it's made it a little more difficult.

When I was in my 30s and 40s and even 50s, I had a long runway.

I, I could see where I how long I was going to, had no plans on

doing anything except for growing A&W.

And now that I'm in my 60s, I, I know that the rides going to end

at some point. And so I have, so that creates

indecision for me, which also reflects on the company.

And it makes, it makes it more difficult for the, for the

managers because they don't know exactly where I'm at.

So that's been a challenge. So those, so it's hard to lead

and have a real direction when you don't know if you're going

to be around for another, you know, five years, three years,

10 years. And that that's, that's a tough

place to be for the, for the people working for me.

Yeah, Yeah. I can imagine you, you make

decisions a little bit differently if you're all in for

the foreseeable future versus if you're looking for an off ramp

or at least considering that there it might not just go on

forever. You make decisions a little bit

different. Right.

And even though you're having fun at the time, like right now,

I can't imagine doing anything else.

You have to kind of plan for that, that plants that seed in

your mind. Yeah.

Was there anything that significantly delayed the growth

of your company? And if so, how would you handle

it differently if you had the chance to do it over?

I would say our delayed growth would be through probably we, we

took on work that we should not have and we had projects, couple

projects that were not profitable, which sucked the

growth out of the company at times.

So we would run, we would, we would do well, we would, we

would grow and then we would have a, for whatever reason, a

bad project and that would, that would suck all the, all the

money out. And so we could, we would stop

our growth for a while and then we would have to rebuild and

grow some more. And then that happened, that

happened quite a few times for different reasons, at least

twice in a really in a, in a real big way back in once in I

think it was like 1998 ish area. I am over expanded.

I was, I had, I started, I had the sheet metal company going.

I started a single ply roofing company division and then I

started manufacturing steel buildings.

And so I was doing all of that and they were all for the same

kind of the same market, which was not super fast pay and I

didn't have my financing. I didn't have any financing in

order. I was all just self financed and

it just sucked all the money out of us.

And, and and that was AI had to work.

I had to do a workout on that. That took me probably three

years to work myself back out of that, you know, almost

bankruptcy situation of over expansion.

And then I did the same thing for different reasons.

Kind of a different thing happened back in 2011, same

thing only a way bigger level. Had I over expanded again, had

some really, really poor projects and even the projects

that were should have been good, we had way too much work.

So they, a lot of those didn't make any money either.

So we were, we were in pretty bad shape and that that workout

took me 5 years I would say. And that took everything that I

had. I had to take everything I made,

I had to put back in the company and, and just kind of rebuild

again. So I've done that done that to

myself twice. Hopefully I've learned that

lesson. I think I have, But those both

of those times, if we didn't have those setbacks, we would be

definitely in a different spot right now or we would have, we

would have been here a lot sooner.

Yeah. So it sounds like maybe both of

those instances were trying to go grow too much too quickly.

You feel like kind of settling for steady growth or focusing on

a steady growth rather than pushing it forward would have

served you better. Well, well, possibly, but this

time around we you know, we grew even fat a lot faster and it's

been, it's been fine, it's been better.

Our cash flow is, is really good like we have, we haven't been

indoor. We have a line of credit.

So we've, I've set up financing now.

So we have we have a backstop and as we've grown, I've been

able to make the backstop more robust, but we haven't had to

use it for three years at all. So but we've grown you know from

8 million to 28 million. So why it's it's all about the

market really that we're in and where we're trying to grow in

more so than the growth and and the way that we are growing.

So, you know, taking on a different mindset that we don't

have to do all the work ourselves, that we don't have to

hire every employee that we can, we can sub, sub out work to

people that are competent, that want to do it on their own.

And so changing that up, those are the lessons that we learned

back in, you know, 2011 here when we tried to do all this

work and we had to do it on our own and we just couldn't get it

done. So we, we learned those lessons.

So now when we go, when we go out to a big job, we may, we may

sub out 1/3 of it. Like if we don't, we don't want

to, let's say we don't want to do the tear off or we don't have

the manpower for the tear off. We'll hire a, a company that can

roll in 20 guys or whatever they do and, and do that work for us.

So we keep our guys doing what they do best.

And that, that's made a big difference.

Yeah, It, it sounds like I'm hearing a little bit of

hesitation or a lot of caution with using subcontractors.

What kind of vetting or what kind of a process do you use to

to make sure that you're getting competent guys that you can

trust? Well, we have, we use the same

subcontractors on you know on every job.

So we don't, we don't go out and try new guys.

We put we put one of our own guys on every crew as a, as a

kind of a project manager manager that sits out there and

kind of directs the show and make sure everything's done

correctly. And so we don't, we don't take a

lot of chances on the subcontractor thing.

There's we just don't want to get burned.

There's a lot of guys that don't do the job right, but we watch

them really close. Yeah, that's we've been through

a similar journey. I took a lot of pride for a long

time and the fact that we did everything in house and we never

used subcontractors and we kind of hit the same point where if

we were going to grow or even just to finish the work that we

had secured, we had to find something different.

So we were pretty picky and selecting some very qualified

subcontractors and and parked supervisor on the job with them

to work with them, train them to do it our way and it paid off

and worked out well. But I see jobs done by other

contractors that use subcontractors that did not turn

out well. Frequently they, yeah, they

suffer the consequences of hiring somebody that can't do

the job properly or isn't competent.

Yeah, I think that's common. And even with this contract, you

know, the subcontractor you use all the time, you still can run,

you still run into the little things that aren't done quite

right or, or, or, or their actions aren't, aren't what you

think they should be. I mean, there's all kinds of

challenges. Yeah, yeah.

What is the lesson that you wish you would have learned earlier?

Well, I would, I wish we would. I would have paid more attention

to what market I'd be more successful in and then spent

more effort actually pursuing that market instead of I think a

lot of a lot of the market that I did for a long time was just

because it was easy and I had people.

So there is work out there that people would throw at me and so

I would do it and that would keep us, that would keep us

busy. And so we, we were busy doing

work that although we made money on it didn't allow us to really

go into the markets that we could have made more money on.

And then we were going, we weren't going to market the same

way. So now we, we go more direct

marketing. We, we run, you know, actual

sales guys and always, always before we just ran estimators.

So now we're out doing business to business basically, you know,

if not actually knocking on doors, we're knocking on, you

know, we're talking to property owners direct and that's where

we're finding we have the most success.

The, the margins are better, the pay is better, the timing on the

payments better, the jobs are easier because we're, we're in

control of the schedules. There's all the advantages.

And for years we, I, we just didn't do that.

We just, we mostly focused on GC work, maybe some developer work

and, and, and we just didn't go out to market on the business to

business side. So that's that's a big deal.

You still do some work with GCS and developers or if you kind of

moved entirely towards business to business and direct to

consumer? No, we still do.

We do about, oh, probably about 30% I would say is, is GC

developer work mostly GC now we were doing a lot of developer

work about a few years ago, but that's in the Portland area

right now. That's kind of like dried up up

a little. Our our clients have aren't

building when the interest rates went up and the all that went

down last year. They just kind of put a pause on

on what they were building. We were doing a lot of like 4

over twos or 3 / 1 mixed-use jobs and that we just, we

haven't done one of those for a while.

And so now we're back to doing GC work again.

OK. Yeah, I think that 30% mix that

seems like a a pretty good mix. That's kind of 2030%.

That's where we found our sweet spot to of staying in, staying

in with the GCS, taking their work, but being able to control

our schedule a little better. Definitely.

And we're doing, we're doing a little more government work

again too. We, we for a while there, for

probably 10 years, we did no government work.

But now we're back doing a little bit of government work,

you know, just kind of getting a better mix as the like, as the

developer jobs kind of dried up, you know, we, we kind of moved a

little bit to some government work.

Yeah, yeah, different, different customer bases kind of go up and

down with the economy. It seems like, like you said,

when interest rates are high and people aren't building, man,

we've seen a lot of state and federal government work coming

out and that's been filling our schedule, whereas a few years

ago there wasn't a lot of that, but the the building was booming

and getting big. Yeah.

So you got to do, I tell the guys you got to do it.

You got to, you know, got to do something to build something.

You know, we, we used to work all over Oregon, Washington and

Idaho. And then as we got bit, you

know, older and busier, We, we, we just got our, our geographic

radius got smaller and smaller. So then we were really just

working around in Portland for, for a long time.

And now we're moving back out again.

We're, you know, we're looking back up into Seattle a little

bit. We're, we're working up in the

tri-cities. We're working down in Eugene, OR

we're down on the coast. So we're kind of we're, we're

spreading back out again, which I, we always did that before

because we traveled and did Fred Meyer's and Payless stores.

But it's, it's, it's a little different than what we've been

doing for a while, a long time. OK.

Has that been challenging, trying to manage your company as

it's broadened its footprint? Again, I haven't.

Really noticed it. We've done it better this time.

I don't it hasn't been. It hasn't been as much of a

challenge or at least maybe because I'm not as directly

involved in that now, but it seems to be working pretty

seamless. Whereas before there's, there's

always been some challenges. It's, it's been, it's been good.

We've been doing a lot of work out.

You know, in Eastern Oregon, Bend, it's about 3 1/2 to 4

hours away, successful, profitable.

We're down in Klamath Falls, OR. That's a good 5-6 hours.

We're we're making money there. We're down in Eugene.

We're doing real well there. So we're we're doing it a little

differently. We're hiring locally.

So I'll bring in everything on the size.

I'll bring in maybe a, a crew, a small crew.

I'll rent a house or a house and a shop or whatever I need to

and, and then we'll hire maybe, you know, three to five guys

locally that come to work so I don't have to bring everybody

back and forth and that that seems to be working.

Yeah, that seems like a great model, traveling like that and

spreading out, especially if you have jobs of some good size that

are going to keep guys on them for a while.

You know, and on the on the flat side, we'll bring in our when

we're bringing in a subcontractor, they don't really

care where they're working. Some of the subcontractors we

use or they're all coming in from out of state anyway.

They may be coming in from Texas or or California or Georgia or

wherever they're coming from. So they don't necessarily need

to feel like they're working in Portland.

They might just go to Kent, WA saying they don't.

It's the same thing. So that that's really pretty

seamless. Yeah.

Good. Is there something that you've

changed your mind about significantly throughout the 30

years, 34 years you've been in business?

Maybe an opinion that you held pretty strongly early on and

you've changed your mind about. No, I can't.

I can't think of anything really.

I mean, we've definitely changed, but I I've always just

kind of had an open mind. I like to listen to different

ideas, think out, think out-of-the-box a little bit.

So I've I've always entertained different ideas.

So I'm willing, I've always been willing to try an idea and I

still, I still AM. Yeah, It sounds like that's

worked out well for you with the the different businesses you've

started and spun off and and different markets that you've

got into. Yeah, it's evident you kind of

have an open mind and are willing to give something a

shot. Would you say that has paid off

for the most part? I know you said there were two

times where you maybe got out over your skis and it was

detrimental, but in the larger picture is that paid off for

you? Oh yeah, it's been successful.

I would say probably the next phase, you know, here at A&W

anyways, is becoming more of a, a managed company, you know,

with a, you know, now we have a controller and division leaders

and managers. And it's just, I'm more of an

entrepreneurial type person. So I'm, I'm excited by an idea

and get going on it, but I'm really not a, I'm not a detail

person. I mean, I, I, I have a vision, I

kind of get the big vision, but I like to leave the little

details to other people. And I kind of, that's kind of

how I am. And so it's, I've had to, once

again, you know, kind of learn how to just let, let the

managers manage, let them do their job or pick, help, pick

the kind of projects that we're going to be most successful for

or what we're going to do. Because I still have other ideas

for other businesses and stuff to do.

And, and you know, I'm always, that's what, that's what I like

to do. That's probably 1 an idea of a

new company, a new product that's excites me and designing

skins on buildings that that excites me.

So I, those are the two things that I like to do.

So I kind of, I kind of move towards those directions,

managing a company on a day-to-day basis.

It's not really what I like to do.

Well, it sounds like you found some people that are doing it

well for you and allow you to focus on what you enjoy.

I I have yes which makes it easy to stay and keep working.

That's great. That's not true for all

entrepreneurs. I think a lot of us get bogged

down dealing with the things that were not the things we got

into business for, right? Is there a major mistake that

you wish you could have avoided? Well, almost bankrupting my

company a couple times would be right there in my mind over

expansion. It makes you really cautious,

you know, 'cause you're only, you're, you know, a few big bad

projects away from problems. And so you got to really you

can't, you can't make up in the field for a slip of the pencil.

And so your your sales price, your estimate, that's critical.

Yeah. Have you changed the way that

you do things or maybe change the way that you manage your

estimators because of those mistakes?

Well, yes, so, so we run, you know, I, I developed my own

spreadsheet a number of years ago that we, that we use on the

metal side. And then on the flat side we use

a, a can system or FCS. And we, we run our estimates in

there. And so on that side, grant

reviews all the bids, all the estimates.

And then on the metal side, I review all the estimates, which

takes, takes extra time. But that's where, that's where I

really ran into trouble back in 2011 was some bad estimates that

I didn't review that ended up being poor projects.

And so I'm, I'm real cautious about.

And we, we have now before we bid a job, we have a, a pre bid

meeting with the operations and the, the, the, the division

manager and the estimator or salesman and we go over whether

or not we really want to bid the job and what are the, what are

the pluses and minuses? Does it meet all the criteria?

And then before we did the job, we have a another meeting and we

go over the estimate and the plans with the operations and go

over all the parts and pieces to kind of make sure that we are

all thinking on the same page that we have all the, all the

parts, all the scopes covered that we think we have the, the

we're not going to run into any challenges on the operation

side. And then they sign off on that

and we then did the job. And then if we're successful,

then we also have another meeting and we really the

operations goes through the whole job again and we really

look at it and before we sign a contract and then once all those

boxes are checked, we sign the contract and move forward.

Everybody takes accountability. The operations team is

accountable for the margin and they take the ball from there.

So that's kind of before we just, we didn't have any of

those procedures or checks and balances so.

Yeah. And that's, that sounds like a

great process to get the operations involved on the

bidding side, cuz like you said, the execution can't make up for

a poor bid. And so trying, trying to hold

operations accountable for a bid done by an estimator that that's

something I think a lot of US contractors struggle with is if

a job's bid wrong, they can't make it up.

So does that tie into your compensation as well as do you

have their performance based compensation package that holds

those people accountable for all steps of that?

Yeah. So on the estimator sales side,

there are sales guys are on a Commission basis based on the

margin, the Net margin of the job.

And then operations also has a compensation bonus plan based on

the margin of the job and the slippage up or down.

And so there's a minimum, a minimum margin where nobody wins

or there's a, there's an upside for both if it's a, if it's a

winner. So that, that seems to help.

I it it, it compensates for winners and it protects us for

on a job that's maybe not quite so profitable.

Yeah, Yeah, that sounds like a great system.

That's something I struggled with a long time is I, I love

performance based compensation, but when you have kind of two

different sides of the business there the the person estimating

is not the person installing, it can be difficult to gauge, you

know, where did it go wrong? Was it miss estimated or was it

poorly executed? And sounds like getting them

both involved there from upfront and agreeing to the metrics

allows you guys to do that in a good way.

Right. I mean, operation signing off on

the job before they take it kind of makes them accountable that

it's that they can do the job that the way it was estimated

and it puts, it puts the onus on them.

If they, if on the other hand, if they feel that there is an

estimating mistake before we sign the contract, then we push

back. We'll push back to the estimator

of the client and either go in we, you know, and basically

we'll just be honest and upfront with the client.

It hasn't happened much, but it has happened where we've had to

go back and say, hey, we've, we've, we made a mistake, you

know, and most of most of our clients are the people that we

deal with. They appreciate that upfront,

you know, and we would rather not do the job if, you know, I

don't want to do a job if we're going to lose money.

And, and they don't want to be, they don't want to be on the

other side of that ball either. And so that that makes a big

difference. Yeah, that's good that they

understand that. I think a lot of people don't is

you don't want to own the project that a contractor went

bankrupt on. No, we're taking over jobs all

the time for on subcontractors that can't do the work for

generals that shouldn't have signed them up, But they're just

I don't know, you know, it's that low buck allure.

They you know, they think that they have to use the low guy or

they think they're going to maybe they can manage their way

through the the issue. They all know that it's going to

be a problem or, or most of them that do that, if they're

experienced at all, they know they're going to be having to to

hold the hand and see if it even makes it through.

But a lot of times it doesn't. You know, every year you get

these two or three companies that are going out of business

and that's that's just painful for for the general, the client

and the the sub, you know, we're glad to take the work on, but

you know, if they would have just used somebody reputable at

the beginning and would have saved a lot of, lot of

heartache. Yeah.

The best general contractors that I know have a pretty

limited number of Subs that they work with and and they don't

necessarily just take the lowest bid.

They might, they might have two or three Subs for each scope of

work, but they only use those two or three.

They don't open it up to just the lowest price of anybody in

the market. Right, that's that's not not a

good way to go. No, we have one general

contractor we work with that he assembled what he calls his

team. And even before they take on a

job as AGC, he calls all of his primary Subs.

And you know, hey, I'm looking at doing this job.

This is the time frame, this is the schedule.

Are you going to bid it for me? And when we get it, can you do

the work? And if any of his, you know,

primary Subs can't do it, he doesn't take on the job because

he doesn't want to work with somebody else.

That's that's conservative for sure.

That's, I think, smart. It seems to work well for him.

Their, their projects finish on time and they're done well and

they don't have to manage through a lot of problems.

So right, if you could go back to the late 80's, the early 90s

and had the opportunity to do this all over again, would you?

Oh yeah. Yeah, in a heartbeat.

I love, I love this industry. I love what I do.

That's that's why I'm still doing it.

It's fun. We you deal with, you know,

you're helping people with a problem, which is beneficial.

It makes you feel good. You meet a lot of really nice,

just normal people in this industry.

Everybody it's there's a lot of nice, helpful people hard

working. I come from a blue collar

background. So it's kind of I like blue

collar attitude. So that's that's been nice.

I'm comfortable in it. No, I love this industry.

That's I can't. I can't imagine doing anything

else really. Great.

Do you think there's still opportunity for a young person

to start today and do what you've done?

Oh, I think probably more so. I mean, if they do it right,

there's a whole generation of people that are maybe a little

bit older than me or my age that have established companies,

subcontractor companies in specialty markets that don't

really have any kind of an exit strategy.

And, and that, and that's creates an opportunity for, for

somebody that's, you know, has some energy and is smart and

wants to, wants to get into this industry.

The other thing, you know, some of the younger generation, I

don't know, it seems like they want to just get in and then

work for a few years and just try to blow it up and get out,

which is a different attitude than, you know, we, my

generation, we got in and we kind of grind it out, just kept

grinding. So I think if a person has the

attitude that they're going to want, they want to do it for,

for a while or a long time, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a

good opportunity. The, the roll ups that are

happening are going to create some challenges.

But I think if a person is young and start, you know, a young

smaller company is more agile, they can kind of move around the

edges. You can make money.

You can do what you need to do. The big, the big bad boys, the

roll ups, They're they're here and they're going to they're

going to disrupt, but they have cost too.

They if you position yourself in the right place, I think you're

still you're still in a better position than they are.

Yeah. And one of the reasons they're

being so successful as they're running into this, these people

like, well, people that are my age and older that are, that are

looking to, they have, they're, they need to get some sort of an

exit strategy. And so that's, that's kind of

fueling that too. And it's, it's, you know, what

you did with your company is, is a harder little bit in some

ways, maybe a harder, harder thing to find.

You got to find the talent that you have confidence in that can

keep take your company to the next level.

And but that's that's a little more challenging.

I think when somebody comes in a private equity group and they

think they have all they already have or maybe a roll up that's

already working that already has all the procedures and talent

and operations going in other places.

But yeah, I think, I think there's a lot of opportunity.

Yeah. I think all of these, the the

roll ups and private equity and building these big

conglomerates, I think is actually going to increase the

opportunity for the startups because those the bigger

companies, they have so much overhead and so much going on.

And, and as you know, you know, back end office, it takes just

as much work to sell administrate invoice to do all

the steps for a small job as it does for a big job.

And so the, the bigger that machine gets, the bigger that

engine gets, the less profitable those smaller medium sized jobs

are. And I know around us anyway,

there's one big conglomerate that I have some employees that

used to work there and they said, you know, any job less

than a half million dollars, they don't even look at it

'cause it, it takes too much resources on the back end, it's

not worth the effort. Whereas for a, a small guy, you

know, him running the business with one crew or a few guys are

kind of getting started, man, that would be a big job for

them. And that there's huge

opportunity. And so as all these kind of

medium sized businesses get bought up in the conglomerates,

I think it's going to open up a lot of room for new startups and

and small companies to grow and really thrive.

I agree 100%. And the new guy, the young guys,

you know, they have kind of they're more savvy with the,

the, with the social media and web and, and, you know, doing

all the, all, all the marketing online.

You know, I'm going to there, the new guys are going to market

a little differently. It's more successful with this,

with the, the society we live in now, whereas the old guys, you

know. I mean, we just threw a bid.

Out we would just throw bids, throw bids.

There was no marketing and and there's a lot of companies like

that still at least out here there's I would say the majority

of the of the roofing and sheet metal companies, they don't do

any kind of marketing push. Yeah, yeah, I think that's true.

A lot of the the young people that know how to work.

In that space can get a lot of momentum early on simply because

well, even I consider myself one of the young guys on the younger

side. But even the the age I came into

the industry that just wasn't how you did things that wasn't

where leads came from you you got jobs by throwing bids out

there. And so we've kind of become so

set in our ways that somebody new coming in with a new idea

upsets the market a little bit. Yes, yeah.

So that's I've seen that for sure.

That's what you know, that's kind of what Grant came in and

did. Yeah, he's a great example of

that. So you mentioned.

A trend maybe with young people that are wanting to get into the

business and and blow it up real quick and have a quick exit.

And almost in the same breath, we talked a little bit about

some of the big roll ups and private equity that are really

getting involved in service businesses.

Do you feel that attitude of the young?

People of, you know, wanting to. Do that and and have the short

career, the quick exit. Is that an just an attitude of

the that younger generation or is that a product of the

opportunity with private equity getting involved in the service

businesses? Well, that's a tough one.

So first of all, I think I, I really think the private equity

guys don't really understand the risks of the industry that we're

in. Maybe some of them do, but

they're, I don't know if they're going to, they're going to have

a rude awakening because it's, it's a tough, risky, super risky

business. But on the younger generation,

is it because of the opportunity of the, maybe there's some of

that? I think that creates a for a

young person that has that frame of mind, it would create that

opportunity and, and a vehicle to to make that happen.

But I think maybe that attitude is maybe based upon society and

maybe what we how companies have treated their workers possibly

and, and how they see there's really no loyalty on the other

side of the fence. And so that they're just kind of

in it to, in it to win it and get out.

I mean, I don't know how many times I've talked to well,

people, younger people that they're just, they just want,

they want to get it. They want to grow the company

and get out. Now do they know what they're

going to do? They don't really have that

really planned out. They just think that they need

some sort of security. So it's a like, I have a son

who's late 30s, almost 40. He owns a solar company and he's

been in business now maybe 8 years, seven years.

But they're talking, you know, they're, they're always talking

about, you know, if the industry firms up or when's the right

time to get out and, and go on to and, and take, take the risk

off the table. And these are kind of the things

that when I was their age, I really never really even really

thought of. And we didn't have that

opportunity either. There was really nobody that was

going to come in and. And take the risk off the table

for us and now and now. You, they're the private equity,

they're out. There so it's probably a little

I'd say it's both yeah, I I agree 100% but.

Being one of those younger guys that kind of falls into that.

I was really curious to hear your, your viewpoint.

But I think my generation and even the generation behind us

were that the instant gratification generation, we

grew up with the Internet. You know, those younger than me

grew up with the magic wand. That's the smartphone in their

hand and they can push a button and have stuff delivered to

their door the next day or even that same day.

And just anything is possible and everything has speed up the

the concept of working hard, grinding for something has kind

of just gone away because most things you can get with the

touch your butt touch of a button and have it right away.

But then the other side of that is also, you know, the

opportunity for that to happen that that wasn't there.

I mean, 20 years ago, if you were starting a company you were

committing that was going to be your life was to build that.

And you know, 20-30 years from now, hopefully you can pass it

off to somebody else and have made enough money along the way

to make it work. But this idea of building it up

real quick and selling it off or something like that just really

didn't exist because the the opportunity wasn't there.

So, and I'm not saying that that's a bad thing.

I mean, it's just. Different, it's like, so

somebody in the right mind could have maybe 3 or 4 careers or you

can, you know, it gives you an opportunity to do different

things like yourself. You know, you're you're taking,

it's not like you're going to just go fishing every day.

You're not retiring per SE. You're just going to, you know,

pursue other pursuits And I I'm not that maybe that's a good

thing. So it is it good for the

industry? I don't I don't know, I guess

we'll have to see. You know, big corporations don't

tend to be really, I don't think they're really good for society.

Maybe they don't or for people in general or for the industry.

I I don't know how that's going to play out.

But for the individual that's on the other side of that, that's

that's a good thing. Yeah, Yeah.

I think it'll be interesting to watch.

I agree with you. I think a lot of those, you

know, the roll ups might be a different thing that it's a

company that started and was successful and starts acquiring

others is a little bit different than, you know, an equity group

coming in and buying up a whole bunch of businesses and trying

to put them together is man service businesses.

There's a there's a personality that goes with the service

business. And like you said, there's a lot

of risk. It's a a high risk, high reward

business and managing risk is a big part of it.

And if you didn't grow up in it, if you don't know the business

inside and out, if you don't know the risks to watch out for,

man, you can get yourself in trouble real quick.

So it'll be interesting to watch.

Yes, yes it will. And that's what you know, and

they don't. Care if it if it starts going

down or bad, they just shut the doors and then you're just

everybody's out a bit out of work, got to move on.

There's a company out here in Portland called Schoolhouse

Electric. I don't know if you know who

they are. They were, they were bought in,

I think it was 2019 or 2020 for I disclosed some.

They're very successful, bought by a private equity firm and now

they're closing their doors. It's only been four years, five

years and out of biz. So, you know, it's, it's kind of

sad. I mean the owners, the former

owner. He he got.

Out all right, but all the employees and everything else

they're just out of luck. Yeah, yeah, the the very first

company. I had no intentions of exiting

my company or selling. The opportunity was kind of

brought to me. I, I was looking at grinding it

out for the next 15 or 20 years and the first company that came

to us and, and presented an option, we ended up not pursuing

that. But one of the acquisitions they

had around that same time, which is only about two years ago, 2

1/2 years ago, they're closing the doors and going out of

business as well. They, they got a little bit over

their skis with financing and didn't understand the risk side

of things and, and didn't understand the, the personality

centric aspect of that business and it, it dried up pretty

quick. So we'll see.

I'm I'm really excited that I get to hand ours off to somebody

that's in the family, so to speak, and sell it to somebody

that's been here working with me for a while instead of an

outside firm. Yeah, makes difference.

What has been your biggest win? As a leader, what are you most

proud? Of I'm proud that I have

employees that have worked for me.

For. 25. Years.

I've got a lot of guys that have been here for a long time, all

my all on the sheet metal side, my foreman have all been here

for 20 years or more. Plus the management.

And I feel that that's because we're, we treat them fairly and

we respect them and we, we care about them.

And so they care about us. And that, that, that's probably

my, my greatest achievement, I think is.

Having guys that have been working with me.

For so long, yeah, that's awesome.

I love to see that, especially in the trades because.

The the work that we do is not always easy and it's not always

fun. So if if somebody sticks with

it, it's because they're being taken care of well, not because

they just absolutely love the work that they're doing.

Usually, yeah. And what has been your best?

Resource to grow as. A leader throughout your career?

I would say mentors older, older people.

Running their own companies. That I've been.

That have kind of taken me under their wings and given me advice,

though. That's been very helpful.

Kind of been there, done that. Yeah, that's great.

They're they're not all released yet.

But I've done like 3 interviews here in a row, guys with stories

similar to yours started a company around the same time

period and, and have built it over a 30 year career.

And every one of them that's been the answer is they had, you

know, older, wiser people that they were smart enough to pay

attention to and it took the time to mentor them and walk

with them. And that's been a a big resource

that does seem to be kind of a, a generational gap.

When I asked younger people that question, that's usually not the

answer that I get. Do you have any thoughts about

what might cause that? Is it?

Well, because they never. They haven't.

I don't. Know they haven't put in the

time, maybe so they don't really.

Or me, I don't know. It's just a whole different.

Maybe it's a whole different attitude.

Maybe that's not important to the younger, a younger person so

much as it is to my generation. I don't know.

It's it's good when you can. Look at somebody and see.

That's been around a long time and they've grown and done well

and it gives you a sense of pride when you know that

they're, you know, doing well financially and mentally and

they're kind of living a dream that you helped them create, at

least for me and I maybe a. Younger.

Leader isn't so focused on that and and I I probably wasn't.

That focused on that. When I was in my 30s, either or

40s, I was more focused on just maybe myself and and my dream.

And it takes time to develop a different attitude.

Interesting. So you've mentioned a couple

pretty. Difficult things at at least

twice that you said you were, you know, close to losing

everything and and had to fight for a long time to build it

back. What motivates you to keep

pushing when things get hard? I'm pretty determined as a

person. I just don't.

I just keep doing. I don't give up, I just keep

grinding out. The second time it happened, it

was pretty it. Was severe.

So I but and I and I actually did think about throwing in the

towel like that was it was at a point where it was I could have

easily thrown in the towel. And.

That's and that would have been OK.

I went up and I, so in this case, I, I was doing joint, I

was doing some joint joint venture work with a company

called Cobra Corp. I don't know if you know who

they were. Yeah, I, one of their former

employees worked for me, OK. Still works for my company but

just not for me anymore. OK, well.

So they I was doing some joint ventures with them up.

In Eastern Washington and I'd go up and roll, I had roll.

I was running roll farmers and and doing metal and they, they

didn't have, they weren't doing, they were doing some metal.

They were expanding into, from the single ply world into the

metal world. And so I was doing.

The metal. Some of the metal for them as a

subcontractor or a joint venture.

The the owner at the time was like a gentleman.

Pete Dicks was, was his name. And when this all went down, I

flew up to see him and I and I talked to him and he, they were

running, you know, at the time a real successful company, or at

least appeared to be successful. It was successful.

They were, they were a powerhouse and they were, they

were expanding and doing, doing a lot of, lot of different

things. And he told, and I told him

because, because he was, they were thinking about, well, they

could just take me on or buy me out or, or kind of merge, merge

me in and, and I can go that route.

He's, he told me he's like, he gave me the story of his, of

when he was younger and his father, they had a company

called the Dicks Corporation, which is still in business.

They do damn work. They do heavy, heavy industrial

type construction. But his dad started that and he

he told me his dad had bought a an oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico

and was to bringing it through the Panama Canal up the West

Coast. And then he invested all of

their money in this thing. I mean, everything huge risk.

And his father passed away, had a heart attack right in the

middle of this whole thing. And so the two brothers who were

young, him and his brother were left holding the bag of no

money. This this this project going

that they that was. Super crazy.

That so they were like in a bankrupt situation and he told

me how they they just got in and just worked it out.

So they worked it out with their suppliers, the government,

everybody and made it through it and just grinded it out.

And, and so that was his recommendation for me.

And so I took. That to heart on the 2nd and I

just, you know, just got got down and just started working it

and and he was right so. Instead of giving up.

I just kept, just kept going. And there I found, you know, you

can achieve basically anything if you have the right frame of

mind and you just stick with it and you're, and you're honest.

So I, you know, I worked it out with all my suppliers, all the,

all my back taxes, everything. And it took a long time, but

everybody got paid and everybody was grateful for that.

And, and I still have the same suppliers and, and, and it was a

good, it was a good lesson. Maybe I should have become a

turn around specialist. I don't know.

I thought about that, although it's it's tough work, but that

would be that was that. That's why I stayed that that.

That helped me get through. Them.

Yeah, that's you got to be a glutton for punishment to be

turned around. Specialist.

Yeah, it sounds like you might be well.

Suited for it, right? Was there a a point in your

career? It was a real.

Turning point for you, maybe a, a, a point that you really

worked and worked and worked for you.

You felt like you kind of hit the top of the hill and gained

some momentum going down the other side.

Not yet, not yet. It it's coming.

No, I just, I've got these, I've got a vision, you know, of like,

you know, because we were, we were kind of doing that, that

private equity deal together, you know, and I, I've always

thought that we could be more. It's always in my mind, it's

always more we can do, we can do more, we can be a little bit

better. And so that drives me to, I

haven't, I guess I haven't got to the top of the hill.

In my mind, I'm still, I'm still climbing up the still climbing

up the mountain. When I get to the top and start

going down the other side, I think that's when I'll be It'll

be over. It'll be time to quit.

Gotcha. Yeah.

Where do you think that drive comes?

From oh boy probably insecurities on myself.

Some just just, I don't know, a vision.

That I have, that I. Want to that I want to do that.

I have, I, I don't feel that we've, we've made it there yet.

There's always something that we can do better.

Maybe a little bit of a streak of perfectionism, although I

don't look at myself as a perfectionist at all.

I just, I'm always thinking that the team can be better.

I kind of look at it as a, as a sports team, you know, I'm

always trying to trade up for a better, better quarterback,

maybe to get, get a little further.

I don't know. I'm not really sure that's a

good honest answer. I can appreciate that this is

my. Favorite question are you a

person of some sort of faith tradition, and if so, how is

that shaped your leadership? Well, I grew up as a Christian

in the. Methodist faith.

I married a Mormon girl and so I went to the Mormon church for a

number of years, 25 years. In I do believe.

In a higher power and I believe in I believe in like values of

the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus Christ as a

kind of as a guide for me for what I should be doing or

striving to do. I feel it's kind of interesting

as I as I've gotten older, I kind of feel I'm more accepting

of other, maybe other Heather avenues to love possibly or, or,

or or whatever that means, you know, the love of Christ or

whatever love that is. I feel that's that's missing in

the society. And I think possibly that if we

could, you know, each do our own part to be more loving and, and

have that attitude that's going to give us the synergy to become

a better society. And so I think it's important

for me anyway to, to try to act that way.

And I'm not perfect. I've, I, I have my own personal

issues and, and, and problems, but I, if I can kind of try to

go back to that and keep that in my mind.

That's kind of that's where I'm at now with with the higher

power and, and, and spirituality right now.

I'm a work in progress. That that's my, that's my

thought. OK.

I think we can all say that we're a work in progress.

If if, if we don't think that about ourselves, that's probably

a big problem. So, so I know you've talked a

little bit about maybe. Getting towards.

The end of your career, What is next for you or next for AMW?

What do you see in the next few years?

Well, we're, we're starting, we're, we're trying to plan a.

A new branch down in Southern Oregon right now.

So we're getting ready to deploy down there on a more permanent

basis. So that's exciting.

We have quite a bit of work lined up down in that area.

So we're going to plant a flag there.

And also we're going to, we're going to start in a serious way

of planning on another flag up in the Seattle area.

Again, we've done that before. We haven't done that for a

number of years, but we're going to, that's our, our other spot

that we're really going to plant a flag.

So we're we're in the growth mode.

We're going to be, you know, we're projecting our biggest

year yet next year and we're going to continue to, to grow

in, in those two markets. So I'm excited about that means

we're going to be able to hire some, some more people, some

some good, some good leaders, I hope and, and get those, get

that off the ground. It'll be fun.

It's fun for me to see that happen.

That'll probably take the next, you know, three to five years

and then and then who knows? I guess we'll, we'll see where

we're at then. OK.

All right. I know you mentioned you have

one son that's. In the solar industry that any

of your kids have any interest in the business or have any of

them worked with you there? I have them.

Well, they've all worked. Worked with me.

My. Oldest son worked with me for a

number of years but he but he wanted to he he didn't want to

wait around for me to retire and take over.

So he moved on on his own. I helped him start a start a

business, which worked out to be a better move for him.

He's he's way smarter than me and has and has grown way faster

than I ever did successfully. I've got another son, Jake, who

he's the our fabrication manager.

He runs, he runs the fab shop on the metal side.

So and he's been working for me for his entire life too.

He's good too. Does he want to take over the

the whole business? I don't really, I don't really

think that's really what he is. Thoughts are possibly at some

point he's he's pretty. Young, there's there's a lot of.

Moving parts as you get bigger, it's, it's, it's more complex.

It's not like just, you know, you and four guys and kind of

learning it as you go. So he, he, he does a good job at

what he does. He's smart also.

So. We'll have to see how that goes,

you know, and I've got some other young guys that are

really, really sharp too, you know, like Grant and some other

some other people that are good. So I don't know, maybe we maybe

an employee sale or something might be in the works, who

knows, or a key employee buyout. OK.

Yeah, that sounds interesting and.

You brought up a point that kind of has my mind spinning here of,

yeah, it is. It's totally different stepping

into running the business that you're in now versus like when

you started. And there's some things that are

probably easier. You get to take some of the

shortcuts and benefit from some of the lessons learned, but you

miss out on growing through the process.

And yeah, when you start out with just a couple guys and

you're out in the field doing it and grinding it out, you learn a

lot about the business as it grows.

And when you step into something that's already established,

that's a pretty quick learning curve.

Yeah, I well, that's what you, that's where you went.

Are your second generation right?

I am. I think I got kind of a hybrid

of. When I bought out my dad, we

were down to I think when I bought the company there was

only 5 or 6 employees and I was still in the field with the guys

every day all the time. And so I I probably got the best

of both worlds. I got the shortcut of the name

was out there. We were well established.

We had systems and processes and and things were working well and

churning well. I didn't have to gutted out from

a zero start, but I I got to kind of grow through the process

as the business grew as well. So is your dad around?

He is. He still lives here in Buffalo.

He hasn't had any involvement in the business for quite a few

years, but he he still meets me in my office for coffee almost

every morning. And yeah, we get to spend a lot

of time together. It's, it's nice.

How old was he when he retired? He was 54.

When he retired. So now did he just go and start

doing something else or is he a rancher or?

What He had a rental portfolio, a bunch of residential.

Rentals and he was doing both for quite a while and then he

sold the business to me and kind of focused on the residential

rentals and that kept him pretty busy I know everybody all the

young people on the Internet right now are talking about real

estate as passive income and I can tell you watching him

there's absolutely nothing passive about it yeah I've I've

got quite I'm in the rental business too so I.

Know, I know. I feel that pain.

Yeah. Yeah.

You don't just sit back and cash checks.

There's real work. Involved.

No. Yeah.

Always, Yeah. Is there anybody that?

You'd be interested. To see on the show.

Somebody that has a a cool story, maybe works in a really

interesting industry or has a unique business that would be

fun to learn more about. Well, my son has a a good story.

They have a, they have quite the.

Solar business going OK. Yeah, that'd be great.

That would be a first. We've not had somebody.

In the solar business and man, I've got a lot of questions

about the solar and and energy sector That would be fun.

I might. Yeah, he's, he's got all the

answers. I mean, he's.

No, really he does. He's he's he's sharp on on all

that and where it's going. That's awesome.

I'd love to learn more about it. I know that's an.

Industry that I've seen people be wildly successful and I've

seen people lose a lot of money and I can't tell the difference.

So I'd be really interested to chat with him.

That would be fun. OK, well we can set that up for

sure. Awesome.

Well, my last question that I ask all of our.

Guests to either fuel or settle the debate.

If you have a job to do, which cordless tool brands do you

prefer? So I I saw that on your

questions like so. We run at the company we run

Milwaukee because they have a program where we they give us

kits of all the tools and then we just, they're like the lease

thing and we turn them back in and get new kits and that's

where everybody runs. But I've personally never really

used Milwaukee on a cordless level.

I mean, we used to use Milwaukee when they recorded.

That's what we used back in the day.

But all I've ever really used is DeWalt.

So I'm going to have to go with, if I was going to buy a drill, a

cordless, I'd be buying a DeWalt.

All right. Well, I think that just about

evens it up. Milwaukee and.

DeWalt have been vying for first place here.

Nobody has said Harbor Freight yet, so there's a reason for

that. Yep, awesome.

Well. Ken, thank you so much.

It's been. A pleasure getting to talk to

you. You just have incredible

knowledge in the industry and leadership and building a

business and I really appreciate you making time to chat with us.

Thanks, Eric. It's been good talking to you

too. I I appreciate you.

And thank you guys for tuning in.

If you. Want to be an expert guest on

the show? Or if you want to ask a question

of one of our expert guests, please reach out to me on the

web at from the Ground Up show.com or on any major social

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And again, if you guys enjoy the content, please like, share,

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That means a lot to me and I really appreciate it.

Until next time, keep grinding.